Hone to replace Norton 4k

I've been honing for a while now, and while I've only managed to get 3 or 4 razors to the point where they will shave me (I'm not quite happy with any of them yet), I think I may be starting to get the hang of it.
My problem lies in the feel of the Norton 4k. It feels gritty, and I just hate honing on it. While it instantly shows up any flaws in my technique (You feel like you're trying to cut throgh a brick if you tilt the razor a tiny bit off), and I may see the merit of it as a training tool from that point of view, it just isn't nice to hone on. I don't like it.
The Norton 8k feels velvety smooth, and seems to suck the blade to the hone ever so slightly. I get to like the 8k more every time I use it.
My coticule with slurry, I also love. While I can feel the garnets cutting, it doesn't feel rough. And the slurry seems to either be quite forgiving of an imperfect stroke, or actually tend to correct your stroke by a bit of suction or magic, I'm not sure which yet.
I don't actually like my coticule with water so much as it is a bit more like honing on glass, I like my Thuringian I got from Kees more for finishing with water.
I also dislike the lack of feedback from my spyderco medium and fine hones but I'm getting used to them a bit more.

Now, after what turned out to be a mega rant on rocks, I think I want to replace my Norton 4k. Given that the feel of the hone is my primary concern, and I can't discern that from any literature or what have you, I thought I'd ask you guys for some suggestions. I want to get a 1k hone as well, as I currently only have my coticule for setting bevels.

I've been thinking about the Shapton Pros and the Naniwa Chosera hones. What do you guys think?

Connor

i do use slip stones.they are very cheap and it is norton but doesn;t look like exact material norton 4/8k has.slip stones are small and what i have done i have clued them together and made surface same level.it does the job but of course it is very small.i have 1k/4 japan hone and only use 1 kside when i set up bevel to razor come from ebay and really in bad shape.i bought slip stones from Woodworking Plans & Tools | Fine Woodworking Project & Supplies at Woodcraft

hope this helps

Before you change stones, lap your Norton 4K down about 1/8 inch. The new ones do feel gritty until you get past it. I will feel much smoother after this lapping and will produce better results as well.

Let me know how it goes. We can always find different stones for you if you still don't like the Norton.

Lynn

I'll try lapping the hell out of it then. Should it have a similar feel in use to the 8k side,or is the 4k a whole different animal?
Thanks for the tip.

Connor

Not as glassy smooth as the 8K side, but smooth. You should not be able to feel the grainy feeling like you do now.

Lynn

Silly question (maybe) ... are you soaking the Norton for 15 minutes+ before using the 4K side? You need to. The 8K side can do without the soaking.

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Originally Posted by Lynn

Not as glassy smooth as the 8K side, but smooth. You should not be able to feel the grainy feeling like you do now.

Lynn

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That's what I thought.
Yes I give it agood soaking before use.
My arm hurts.

Connor

I have norton 4k 8k and after i lapped mine with dmtc my 4k was a lot smoother for sure. I now use my bbw stone instead of my norton with light slurry which you will like as it has a great feeling and they are cheap to buy then i move onto yellow with water and a bit of soapy water i meant to say which makes honing easier and i get smoother and i would say sharper shaving razor than i have ever got from norton even though i do drop down to my norton some times but still finish with bbw yellow and then .5 chr and i get great shaves if i don't first time round you can repeat with your belgiums with out over honing it is very hard to over hone with belgiums i have done 2 / 3 hundred passes and never over honed. try it!

You have everything you need.:)

Start out on your Coticule with slurry. If the slurry starts to turn grayish from steel particles entering, after 20 strokes, it's a fast enough cutter to tackle most bevel issues on a dull razor.
Once the keenness maxes out on slurry (the razor should shave arm hair with great ease), jump straight to the Norton 8K, for about 30 strokes. Finish on the Coticule with water, but add a drop of dishwashing soap to it.

Just one of your options, omitting the 4K.

Bart.

That's the cheapest new hone ever! It feels like I expected it to now, and is much nicer to hone on. As promised, the results seem better too, but I haven't shaved with it yet.
I did notice something interesting when lapping the Norton down. I tested it twice during the lapping by running a razor across it to see what it felt like, but when I had taken enough of the surface off I could definately feel the difference ON THE LAPPING PLATE!!! The Norton now felt like I was lapping it on sandpaper instead of a concrete block (I was actually using a DMT D8C). I washed the stone off, and sure enough it felt much better with a razor. I had taken just under an 1/8th of an inch off the stone.

Bart, my coticule is indeed a fast cutter and you can notice the slurry turning greyish after about 15 strokes, but it is a bit short for major bevel work (It's 1.2"x5"), and I would like longer hone. Are there any 1k hones with a nice feel? I would probably still use the coticule to finish off the bevel and for blades which don't need so much work. I'm interested in your idea of going from the coticule with slurry straight to the 8k. I would of expected it to take a lot more work on the 8k than you suggest. I'll have to try that.

Connor

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Originally Posted by Rosco

That's the cheapest new hone ever! It feels like I expected it to now, and is much nicer to hone on. As promised, the results seem better too, but I haven't shaved with it yet.
I did notice something interesting when lapping the Norton down. I tested it twice during the lapping by running a razor across it to see what it felt like, but when I had taken enough of the surface off I could definately feel the difference ON THE LAPPING PLATE!!! The Norton now felt like I was lapping it on sandpaper instead of a concrete block (I was actually using a DMT D8C). I washed the stone off, and sure enough it felt much better with a razor. I had taken just under an 1/8th of an inch off the stone.

Bart, my coticule is indeed a fast cutter and you can notice the slurry turning greyish after about 15 strokes, but it is a bit short for major bevel work (It's 1.2"x5"), and I would like longer hone. Are there any 1k hones with a nice feel? I would probably still use the coticule to finish off the bevel and for blades which don't need so much work. I'm interested in your idea of going from the coticule with slurry straight to the 8k. I would of expected it to take a lot more work on the 8k than you suggest. I'll have to try that.

Connor

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Great to hear you managed to tame your Norton 4K.

About your Coticule, 1.2" is narrow, but that can actually be an advantage, but you are right about 5" being on the short side. For the sake of trying it one time though, it could do.
I often jump straight to a Naniwa Chosera 10K after the Coticule with slurry, without any problems. I own no Norton 8K, so the 30 strokes I mentionned are based upon what seems to work for others. If you decide to give it a try at some time in the future, I certainly encourage you to experiment a bit with the stroke-count on the 8K.

Best regards,
Bart.

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Originally Posted by Rosco

I could definately feel the difference ON THE LAPPING PLATE!!! The Norton now felt like I was lapping it on sandpaper instead of a concrete block (I was actually using a DMT D8C).

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Eeep!:eek: I hope you don't have shiny bits on the DMT plate now. :(

First I am going to say I liked and still do the 8K Norton but I couldn't wait to replace the 4K. I replaced with the 4K Shapton and could tell within a few strokes of the blade that I made a good choice. At $56 at Shapton GlassStone Waterstones it is a good buy. Oh yea, no soaking.

bj

FWIW, I've got Coticules, Eschers, Thuringans, Shaptone and other oddball hones. I have 2 Norton 4Ks, both single grit, in 8X3 and 8X 1 1/2 and I love them. Not that I don't like the other hones too but more and more the 4/8 is the go to hone for those grits. YMMV.

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Originally Posted by Bart

About your Coticule, 1.2" is narrow, but that can actually be an advantage, but you are right about 5" being on the short side. For the sake of trying it one time though, it could do.

Best regards,
Bart.

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Oh, I have used it to do the initial sharpening on a few blades and it worked just fine for the few that didn't need major bevel work. And I love the width of it. I'm one of those fools that cut his Norton in half. I like 'em skinny. I just want something a bit longer for the major work, but I would like it to feel at least a little like using a coticule with slurry or even like the Norton 8k. Can anyone compare the feel of the Shapton pros to what I am describing? Still not sure that I like the Norton 4k, although it is much more useable now.

Cnnor

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Originally Posted by Rosco

Oh, I have used it to do the initial sharpening on a few blades and it worked just fine for the few that didn't need major bevel work. And I love the width of it. I'm one of those fools that cut his Norton in half. I like 'em skinny. I just want something a bit longer for the major work, but I would like it to feel at least a little like using a coticule with slurry or even like the Norton 8k. Can anyone compare the feel of the Shapton pros to what I am describing? Still not sure that I like the Norton 4k, although it is much more useable now.

Cnnor

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Connor,

Try Coticule slurry on your 4K. Hone on that. I expect you will be pleasantly surprised. You could even try it on the 8K.

I am going to get banned for this...:roflmao
(but I'm not joking about the slurry, you really should try it)

Bart.