Not sure what the problem is?

Ok, so I've only shaved with a straight 3 times so far. I bought one shave-ready razor from the classifieds here. This was the first razor I tried, so I didn't know what to expect. I felt like it was tugging a bit more than it should. I had imagined it would "glide" across my skin as it shaved, but it was kind of rough. I didn't know if this was normal or not.

In the mean time I had another 8-10 razors that I was buying like mad on ebay. I cleaned up a couple, and one in particular, a 5/8" "cutlerix" brand (solingen) was in great condition. It was already pretty sharp, so I honed it up on the norton 4k/8k then finished on the chinese 12k, then stropped on a pasted strop (chromium oxide) and then stropped on red latigo (tony miller practice strop). When I tried this razor, it was incredibly smooth. I couldn't believe how good of a shave it gave - it just glided over my face, and cut really well also. I can't exactly how many strokes per hone I did, but I'm pretty sure it was in the neighborhood of 10 on the 4k, 20 on the 8k, and 25 on the 12k? Then 20 on the pasted strop, then 25 laps smooth cotton, and 25 laps red latigo.

So after that great experience, I tried fixing up another new razor last night to shave with today, a dubl duck special no 1. It too was already pretty sharp with no nicks or problems I could see with the edge, so I started at the 4k again (I do have a D8E too, but I didn't think I needed it here as it was pretty sharp and the bevel seemed set, not that I'm 100% sure how to check that). I followed the same honing strategy I did for the razor that shaved beautifully, but when I tried the dubl duck today, it pulled simliarly to the way the shave ready razor I bought here did. (The shave-ready is a 6/8 claus, fwiw). It was actually a little bit better if anything, but some of that could be my technique improving too. I was able to complete most of the shave with it, but it wasn't as smooth as the cutlerix. I ended up finishing my chin with the cutlerix, because it I was afraid I'd cut myself if I kept up with the dubl duck, since it was pulling a bit. I actually did my second pass with another razor that I bought off ebay, but I think the guy actually uses razors too (not just an antique dealer) and he told me he had just honed it and stropped it and it was ready to shave with. I did give this one 10 passes on the chromium oxide, 25 laps smooth cotton, and 25 laps red latigo, but it too shaved very nice. Not quite as nice as the cutlerix, but very very close. I was able to complete my XTG pass no problem with it.

So, sorry for the long background, but I'm curious. What was the problem with the dubl duck (and maybe a similar problem with the clauss)? Is this over-honing? Or was it likely that the bevel was never set properly? Or do some razors just pull a little bit and that's the way it's supposed to be? What is the most common thing the razor should do? Glide like butter, or should it have some drag? Or could it be that the razors are sharp enough and pretty much OK, but it's my technique that's the problem?

I know I'll get better with practice, but I'm just wondering what I might try next (tonight) as far as honing goes, to fix these problems, and see how the results are tomorrow morning. I'm making it my short term goal to get the dubl duck to shave like the cutlerix. I'm thinking I might try some circle honing, then try a pyramid on the norton. Which hone would I circle hone on if I tried this?

Sorry that this post turned out so long :ziplip:

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Originally Posted by pjrage

Ok, so I've only shaved with a straight 3 times so far. I bought one shave-ready razor from the classifieds here. This was the first razor I tried, so I didn't know what to expect. I felt like it was tugging a bit more than it should. I had imagined it would "glide" across my skin as it shaved, but it was kind of rough. I didn't know if this was normal or not.

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Since it was shave ready it is probably your technique. I suspect your angle is too steep. I recommend that you shave only the area between your sideburn and jawline for a few shaves so you can get used to the feel of the razor in your hand and against your face. It is better to have angle that is too shallow than too steep. Ideally the angle is about 30 degrees, which approximately 2 shoulder widths. Once you feel comfortable with the razor and your angles then you can add other face areas, was well as XG and AGT. Another thing to work on is your facial prep. Good face prep is just as important as the shave itself.

Put your hones away until you are comfortable shaving. Then you can focus your energies on honing. I think you will be more pleased with the results... :gl:

This has been said many times by many people on here,,,
The true "trick" to honing is the bevel set, once the bevel is even and sharp honing is pretty easy and straight forward..
When starting with an edge of unknown origin and sharpness it is always best to set your own bevel... There is no easy way either, it is sorta like when people ask is there an easy way to take out rust and pits when restoring a razor, there is only one way to do it right, and it takes work....
The good news is the a DD is one of the easiest razors to get a bevel set correctly on... Check the Wiki first and read about the Magic Marker tests and the TNT (thumbnail test) these are invaluable for learning a bevel set...
Many of the guys on here actually dull the old edge before starting to make sure they are not getting false positives on their bevel sets too...
Overhoning should not be a problem unless you are doing to many laps on a synthetic stone or using to much pressure when honing...
I have always thought a combination of the bevel set, and then the Pyramid techniques were a great learning tool if you are using the Norton stones....

And +1 on what Dward just posted, read his twice....

Thanks for the tips guys. I'll try to pay attention to the blade angle even more and see if I can't get the shave-ready clauss to shave better. I'll try that one tomorrow again instead of messing with the other razors. Maybe now that I've got the hang of shaving with the other 2, the clauss will work better for me.

It sounds like I probably shouldn't have made any assumptions about the bevel and just re-set it anyway. I'll look at the wiki for the magic marker test and TPT and try it again.

I shaved for my first two or three weeks finishing my chin and mustache with a DE. Following that I put the DE away and haven't touched it since. My point being that 3 shaves isn't enough practice to get the technique down. I have been at it over a year and my technique is still improving.

Do you have any sort of magnification ? Not long ago I took a Kissing Cranes that I got off of ebay. I looked at it with my 30x and the edge wasn't too bad. I began to set the bevel on a DMT EF 1200. Water and a couple of drops of dish soap.

I used the TNT as I went and as with many of the full hollow Solingens it didn't take long before the edge was digging in to the TN quite aggressively. I went to the 4k Norton and started doing laps. Examining the edge with the TPT. Once the TNT is passed rely on the TPT as the TNT can actually dull a finer edge.

To cut to the chase when the razor felt pretty sharp with the TPT doing a conservative pyramid I looked at it under my 30X again and found that the bevel wasn't completely set even though it passed those tests. Back to the diamond plate.

A lot of guys use the hand held microscopes that Radio Shack used to carry and I hear the ones on ebay are sometimes better. They are cheap and I don't have one so I can't say first hand. I have an old B&L binocular scope that I got for other purposes and a 30X eye loupe from Widget Supply. If you don't have magnification do yourself a favor and get something to look at your bevels that is stronger then the naked eye.
:gl:

I was quick to assume the razors (sharpness) were at fault because even though my (shaving) technique is far from perfect, I couldn't figure out why I have one razor which drags and sticks when I shave at any angle I tried (clauss), (and I did end up shaving my chin with the DE after this), then I have another razor that is so smooth that I felt like a pro doing my chin and everywhere else (cutlerix), yet another razor that drags but doesn't stick (dubl duck), and then a fourth that is nearly as smooth as the second and I can tackle my chin and anywhere else with ease (thomas turner).

Even still, though, I haven't gotten a single bit of irritation from any of them (even though I would usually get a little bit of irritation on my neck with a DE), and my shaves are at least as close as I would get with a DE using the same WTG and XTG passes that I've been doing, so maybe I just need to play with the angle a little more with the clauss. I'm actually pretty excited to give it a try again and really focus on my angles and see how it performs now that I have some level of expectation for what it should feel like. I'm thinking since I used it first and I've tried the others since, that maybe it didn't get a fair shake.

I actually don't have any magnification yet, but I did just win this: Cambridge Educational Academic Microscope - eBay (item 120379750308 end time Feb-23-09 17:20:25 PST) yesterday, and hopefully will have it soon. Thanks for the tips!

As an update, I stropped up the shave-ready Clauss today and had at it. It was much much better than I remember. I had a very nice shave and was able to do my chin too. I guess it was just that I used it for my very first shave and didn't have any technique whatsoever. Guess my technique is improving already!

I still do think that the dubl duck I had tried to hone wasn't properly honed (by me) and that was part of my problem shaving with it. I did re-hone it last night by following some of the guides in the wiki. First set the bevel better, did a pyramid on the norton, 30 laps on the chinese 12k, 15 laps on the pasted strop (chromium oxide), 20 laps on smooth cotton, and 60 laps on red latigo. I didn't try it yet, but it seems to shave arm hair pretty easy.

I really couldn't believe how sharp it was coming off the D8E after setting the bevel. I tried the TPT for the first time ever and definitely have a nice slice in my thumb that is stinging today (paper cut depth). I remember very lightly dragging my thumb down the blade, thinking, yeah, this does feel like strangely like caramel (as the wiki says), and just as I thought that, youch! Learned a lesson, lol. I couldn't believe how easy it sliced even with no pressure.

Once I saw Gssixgun (Glen) describe the TPT as kind of bouncing the TP on the edge. After reading that I did a TPT and realized that is kind of how it is. Bouncing lightly in the direction of the heel towards the point.

I used a sharp new DE to educate my TP as Randydance advised to learn it. I also used the TPT on the striaght in conjunction with the TNT while setting the bevel. IOW, razor is dull and I am on the diamond plate or coarse grit stone setting the bevel and I know it isn't sharp enough to pass the TPT but I am doing it anyway along with the TNT.

As I progress on the bevel I am feeling the progress as I do these two tests and getting my TP to get used to the feel of the edge against it as it gets sharper. Randy told me to do this to get the feel of the TPT and it really worked. Now I use the TPT more then any other. If you hone enough you run out of arm hair pretty quick. :)

I have never cut my TP using the TPT. It is a light touch along the edge with the force going from heel towards the point with only the slightest pressure to see if the edge grabs or the pad slides. The pressure isn't going from the edge towards the spine.

Cool on winning the microscope for that price. ( item #120379750308) I only have the 30x in both the loupe and my microscope. Not sure if 100x is ideal as it might show too much but maybe it will be better then less power.

I think the issue is more about what "shave ready" means to us personally. By virtue of the fact that he had a good shave with another razor should indicate that his technique is at least adequate.

If I shave, and at the end I have a BBS face and no irritation then I consider the blade shave ready. But this is a wide spectrum. I have blades that give more or less "feed back" and all give me the same end result.

The issue is we newbs spend so much time reading posts before our first shave that we come to expect a razor to glide effortlessly across our face. We read so much about the "hot knife through butter" that we assume that's the mark for shave readiness. When our first shave is less than that we wonder why.

And thus the quest for the ultimate edge begins.

For what it's worth I have blades that pull more than others, I am always trying to improve those edges but I have never considered them to be less than shave ready. My face is smooth, there's no redness, no irritation, I'm happy.:D

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Originally Posted by JCitron

For what it's worth I have blades that pull more than others, I am always trying to improve those edges but I have never considered them to be less than shave ready. My face is smooth, there's no redness, no irritation, I'm happy.:D

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J, I agree with what you have said with the exception of the pulling razor. If I have a razor that pulls at all (I'm using the correct angle, prep etc.) I don't consider it shave ready. :shrug: aThen again it depends on if we have the same definition of "pull".

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Once I saw Gssixgun (Glen) describe the TPT as kind of bouncing the TP on the edge. After reading that I did a TPT and realized that is kind of how it is. Bouncing lightly in the direction of the heel towards the point.

I used a sharp new DE to educate my TP as Randydance advised to learn it. I also used the TPT on the striaght in conjunction with the TNT while setting the bevel. IOW, razor is dull and I am on the diamond plate or coarse grit stone setting the bevel and I know it isn't sharp enough to pass the TPT but I am doing it anyway along with the TNT.

As I progress on the bevel I am feeling the progress as I do these two tests and getting my TP to get used to the feel of the edge against it as it gets sharper. Randy told me to do this to get the feel of the TPT and it really worked. Now I use the TPT more then any other. If you hone enough you run out of arm hair pretty quick. :)

I have never cut my TP using the TPT. It is a light touch along the edge with the force going from heel towards the point with only the slightest pressure to see if the edge grabs or the pad slides. The pressure isn't going from the edge towards the spine.

Cool on winning the microscope for that price. ( item #120379750308) I only have the 30x in both the loupe and my microscope. Not sure if 100x is ideal as it might show too much but maybe it will be better then less power.

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I'm not sure I'm completely understanding what you are saying about the TPT. After reading the wiki, my understanding of the TPT is to lightly drag the blade along my thumb pad, heel to toe, as if trying to cut my thumb, but it shouldn't cut it because you are using light pressure. Are you saying the same thing?

I did do this, but I had two main problems. First, I didn't expect the edge to be SO sharp after coming off of the course D8E (1200 grit), so I underestimated the blade. Second, I just started at the heel and kept going toward the tip. I probably should have done small sections at a time instead of one continuous stroke (is this what you mean about bouncing?). With the one stroke, even though I was dragging it ever so lightly, as soon as it started to cut in a little, it just dug in too smooth, too fast :nono:

It was at least as sharp as a DE blade, which I wasn't expecting from that hone. It's not like I cut myself bad or anything, luckily. It didn't even really bleed. It's literally just like a papercut, which, of course, stings :gaah:

You're right Jimmy. Perhaps pulling is not the best word to use. I always imagined pulling in a negative sense to be something where you almost had to force the razor through the hair and were almost tearing the hairs.

I was referring more to excessive feed back so to speak. In my head I imagine that the ultimate edge is one where you don't feel anything at all as you do the initial pass. One step below that and you have a little bit of feed back. As you work down that spectrum you get more and more feed back until you hit the point where the razor is doing as I described above.

"Shave readiness" is unique to each of us and is a range that begins at some point along that spectrum. We all agree that the top of the spectrum is shave ready but where we draw the line is a personal thing.

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Originally Posted by pjrage

I probably should have done small sections at a time instead of one continuous stroke (is this what you mean about bouncing?).

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I think that is what he meant. And that is how I perform it as well. It took me a while to get it right but now that I know what to look for it gets easier each time.

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Originally Posted by pjrage

I I probably should have done small sections at a time instead of one continuous stroke (is this what you mean about bouncing?).

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Yes that is what I mean. What little pressure I use goes in the direction I'm moving my TP not downward toward the spine. Moistened TP and as you know a light touch.

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Originally Posted by JCitron

The issue is we newbs spend so much time reading posts before our first shave that we come to expect a razor to glide effortlessly across our face. We read so much about the "hot knife through butter" that we assume that's the mark for shave readiness. When our first shave is less than that we wonder why.

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This, I think, is exactly what happened. My first shave, with a "shave-ready" razor, did not glide, but my second shave, with a razor that I honed myself (very first honing) glided like I imagined it should. So I wondered why. Then, I honed another razor the same way as the one that glided, and it did not glide, so I wondered why.

As it turns out, though, it seems like I may have been doing a little too much wondering a little prematurely. For the first razor, since it shaved great today, it seems it WAS shave ready, but since it was my first shave, I a) didn't know what to expect, and b) had bad technique. The second razor was probably a fluke that it was honed so well, and the third razor is probably the norm until I get my honing down pat.

Sorry everyone that I've now started babbling and worrying/wondering so much over my newbie discoveries and explorations :rofl2:

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Originally Posted by pjrage

This, I think, is exactly what happened. My first shave, with a "shave-ready" razor, did not glide, but my second shave, with a razor that I honed myself (very first honing) glided like I imagined it should. So I wondered why. Then, I honed another razor the same way as the one that glided, and it did not glide, so I wondered why.

As it turns out, though, it seems like I may have been doing a little too much wondering a little prematurely. For the first razor, since it shaved great today, it seems it WAS shave ready, but since it was my first shave, I a) didn't know what to expect, and b) had bad technique. The second razor was probably a fluke that it was honed so well, and the third razor is probably the norm until I get my honing down pat.

Sorry everyone that I've now started babbling and worrying/wondering so much over my newbie discoveries and explorations :rofl2:

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Not to worry,

This is quite normal around here!! :tu

Lynn

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Originally Posted by JCitron

You're right Jimmy. Perhaps pulling is not the best word to use. I always imagined pulling in a negative sense to be something where you almost had to force the razor through the hair and were almost tearing the hairs.

I was referring more to excessive feed back so to speak. In my head I imagine that the ultimate edge is one where you don't feel anything at all as you do the initial pass. One step below that and you have a little bit of feed back. As you work down that spectrum you get more and more feed back until you hit the point where the razor is doing as I described above.

"Shave readiness" is unique to each of us and is a range that begins at some point along that spectrum. We all agree that the top of the spectrum is shave ready but where we draw the line is a personal thing.

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Agreed, I use the gradual stubble removal I learned in DE shaving. Not trying to get bbs smooth in one pass. Some parts of my face/neck will get smooth in one pass. Some in two and certain areas (on either side of the windpipe) may need further attention.

What I look for is almost no resistance and a smoothness in the cutting of the whiskers. For me the chin and mustache areas tell the tale. If those areas are resistance free and cut smoothly my razor is shave ready enough for me but as you say it is an individual thing.

Randydance told me early on that after coming off of the hones test shave and you may have to go back to the hones a few times to refine and improve the edge. He also told me to try shaving off of the 8k instead of moving on to the higher grits right off the bat. Gives a good indication of how sharp you're getting the razor. I like doing that and find it is a good barometer of how my honing skill is progressing.

Out of curiosity, when you are test shaving razors you hone, are you just lathering up after you finish and doing a couple quick swipes to see where you are at? Or are you waiting until morning (or whenever your normal shave time is) and doing a full shave with the razor? I always envisioned the latter, but it seems like doing that could take a few days to a week to get a razor "just right" if you want to go back to the hones after each test shave.

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Originally Posted by pjrage

Out of curiosity, when you are test shaving razors you hone, are you just lathering up after you finish and doing a couple quick swipes to see where you are at? Or are you waiting until morning (or whenever your normal shave time is) and doing a full shave with the razor? I always envisioned the latter, but it seems like doing that could take a few days to a week to get a razor "just right" if you want to go back to the hones after each test shave.

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I don't know what anyone else does but I wait until my next regular shave. If I am working that day it is before work and if I am off that day it is late at night.

I have heard of some guys testing more then one razor in a single shave but I don't do that. I go through the whole shave. If I honed a bunch for other people I might do it the former way. If a razor isn't doing it for me in the first pass depending on how bad it is I may hit it on a flatbed hone with chrom ox before the second pass.

Personally that is the only time I use paste. Between passes if necessary. I will take the razor to the hones the following day and try getting it up to snuff for the next regular shave. Just the way I am doing it now and subject to change.

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Originally Posted by pjrage

Out of curiosity, when you are test shaving razors you hone, are you just lathering up after you finish and doing a couple quick swipes to see where you are at? Or are you waiting until morning (or whenever your normal shave time is) and doing a full shave with the razor? I always envisioned the latter, but it seems like doing that could take a few days to a week to get a razor "just right" if you want to go back to the hones after each test shave.

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Here is a thread from awhile back that might make for some good reading

http://straightrazorpalace.com/newbi...ervices-2.html

Myself I wait till I am ready to shave anyway, but I can only "Test" up to 6 razors at one time...

I have a rather strict test for razors that I hone for other people, My neck is the most tender spot for me to shave, I do an ATG stroke right off the get go on each razor I am testing, if there is any hesitation at all on the stoke the razor is not up to my "Sharpness" standard... Assuming the razor passes that part I finish the rest of the shave and get the razor ready to fly home...

I like that test Glen. I usually do the whole deal and it's not until I get to the ATG that I really notice if the blade isn't ready. I think I'll skip to an ATG pass from the start just to test. THANKS!