Cant Hone!

Im embrassed to say that even though I have 100's of dollars invested in hones, razors, brushes and my strop; that I have yet to shave with a real straight. I have two razors that I got honed and they just didnt go through my stubble. Ive got stuck using my DE's still. Had enough! I want to learn to hone and strop properly. Honestly, I think my stropping is dulling my razors. Tonight I honed up my latest; Kobar Full Hollow. Didnt pass the HHT; but I did a TPT before and after stropping. Yep, much less sharp after. ugh!!:confused:

While I cannot help you with your honing per say, I can offer some good advice about stropping.

Step 1: Attach the strop to something strong.
Step 2: Pull the strop tight.
Step 3: Go slow until you get the proper technique down. Don't push down on the blade, just let it glide over the leather, but don't let is skate over the leather either. Eventually you'll get a feel for how much pressure is correct.

Cannot stress step three enough. Go very very slow. The razor should feel like the blade is sticking to the strop.

If you still do not feel the sticking sensation AND your razor is properly honed take emergency step #4.

Throw your strop out and go to Tony Miller's website and buy the first strop that becomes available. ;)

As for honing....

If you want, send it to me and I'll hone it for you. Just include the cost for me to ship it back. Can't have you shaving with a DE......:nono:

I like to strop my razors on a bench strop. I have also taken a hanging strop and laid it on a counter and did my stropping that way. My thinking is it took one variable out of the stropping to try and get it right. I too was having a hard time and felt like I was dulling my razors. The bench idea put all that to rest.
Good luck and hang in there.
Remember, there is always more than one way to skin a cat.

Thats a good idea.

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Originally Posted by Leighton

While I cannot help you with your honing per say, I can offer some good advice about stropping.

Step 1: Attach the strop to something strong.
Step 2: Pull the strop extremely tight. As tight as you can, heck, if you think you can lean on it without pulling it out, try that. That said, your arms can pull the leather taught enough, think of it like a micro workout. :biggrin:
Step 3: GO SLOWLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Cannot stress step three enough. Go very very slow. The razor should feel like the blade is sticking to the strop.

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I'm sure this will likely start a debate, but I disagree with steps 2 and 3. First, I don't think the strop has to be pulled as tightly as you imply. You want to prevent the leather from rolling the blade but the strop does not have to be pulled absolutely perfectly straight with great force to accomplish this. Second, I've experimented with stropping speed and I find that I get a much better stropping from a fairly rapid (not ridiculously so) stropping motion and the edge improvement is severely diminished if I go very slowly.

No doubt multiple opinions will follow.

+1 Utopian when my grandfather taught me to strop, he always had slack, but he used no pressure, and while i keep the stop tight I am not trying to pull it out of the wall :) and while speed will vastly improve your edge over slow strokes, it will take time to develop muscle memory to do it properly, there is a great stropping advice post here

also I would add that draw is relative, my tony miller has good draw, my red russian has so much it feels like there are magnets in the leather, and my vintage cordovan has absolutely none!

until you can master shaving and stropping, and maybe a touch up on a barber hone, I would not worry about honing, take things one step at a time, and it will be much more pleasurable for you.

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Originally Posted by Utopian

I'm sure this will likely start a debate, but I disagree with steps 2 and 3. First, I don't think the strop has to be pulled as tightly as you imply. You want to prevent the leather from rolling the blade but the strop does not have to be pulled absolutely perfectly straight with great force to accomplish this. Second, I've experimented with stropping speed and I find that I get a much better stropping from a fairly rapid (not ridiculously so) stropping motion and the edge improvement is severely diminished if I go very slowly.

No doubt multiple opinions will follow.

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Your right, I went overboard. :fim:

Edited it to clarify.

Don't let the HHT be an obstacle. Do it by all means, but file the results away in memory for future reference and comparison. But for now it isn't helping you.

If stropping is making the blade worse, you are doing something wrong*. While speed is beneficial, this is only true if you are doing it right. Do it as slow as you need to to avoid mistakes.

I first saw decent shaves when I stopped obsessing about honing, and started doing 60 laps stropping on plain leather. Although I stropped very slowly and lightly, and the strop I used was short and had low draw, it did give huge improvement.

(*) A possible exception: If you are overhoning and creating a burr, that can give the illusion of sharpness, e.g. passing the HHT. But when you strop, or even shave, the burr can break off revealing a blunt edge.

Light pressure on honing, on stropping, light pressure on shaving. Let's forget about that for a while. You must apply force, or the blade will just sit there.

If you are willing to try this I think you will get good feedback on where your strengths and weaknesses lay.



Take your worst shaver and give it 2 layers of electrical tape. (Be sure your hones are lapped, edges beveled and razor edge breadknifed a couple or 3 strokes on your finest hone) start with your hone that is closest to 1000.
When you make your stroke be sure to apply a twisting torque with thumb and forefinger that pushes the edge onto the hone.

Near the ends of your stroke reach out with the off-hand and lay a finger on the toe lightly touching the blade to aid complete, even x stroke.
(we're not cutting a full, brand new bevel, only a near edge microbevel)

When you can shave a bit of arm/leg/etc hair, add a few of your best combination of light/smooth strokes. Before I was asking for firm contact, now you are just lightly touching.

(leave the tape on) Give your cheeks a light prep- just so you're not on dry skin some hot water and a little soap-whatever. shave some.:eek: :hmmm::shrug:

Time to strop.(Hanging strop) you need some push/pull pressure here as well. pressure on the spine, not directed to the edge. Every 10 strokes, shave test a stroke or two.

The razor is still dull:) you need a firm grip and a confident stroke. If the razor continues to feel sharper and smoother up to 30 straps, progress to the next hone. Finishing again with those positive xtra light strokes each time

You have quickly learned you can hone and strop without dulling. On the middle stone you could throw your linen into the mix. Using a 20/20 linen leather combinations; noting continuing improvement, as you shave a little and strop again. Shave as much as you can WTG up to a total of 60/60.

Leave the tape throughout and keep going finer.

What kinds of gear are you using btw?

What is it with this thread?
Is it a "feed the newbie with as much as controversial information as possible"-fest??

I don't wish to sound disrespectful to anyone, and I'm not aiming to any particular post. As a matter of fact, I love to leave the middle of the road and do things differently.
But JonnyO is a newbie with plenty of problems. Shouldn't we better be offering him conservative, tried and trued advice?

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Originally Posted by JonnyO

Im embrassed to say that even though I have 100's of dollars invested in hones, razors, brushes and my strop; that I have yet to shave with a real straight. I have two razors that I got honed and they just didnt go through my stubble. Ive got stuck using my DE's still. Had enough! I want to learn to hone and strop properly. Honestly, I think my stropping is dulling my razors. Tonight I honed up my latest; Kobar Full Hollow. Didnt pass the HHT; but I did a TPT before and after stropping. Yep, much less sharp after. ugh!!:confused:

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JonnyO, you say you haven't been able to shave yet. You also said you had 2 razors honed by a pro. If that's the case, they WILL shave your beard. If a professional honemeisters edge doesn't cut it, there's no way you're ever going to achieve an edge that will outperform it and succeed where the professional edge couldn't.
Honing takes skill, and most people that want to learn how to do it themselves, must be prepared to shave with less than honemeister quality edges in the beginning. If you still need to learn to use the straight razor to begin with, that might turn out an impossible mission.
On the other hand, we could also presume that the edges were not honed "professionally", and that they are sub par. But how are you going to tell, without being able to judge them during a skilled shave? How are you going to be able to assess your own honing results, if you can't rely on a confident shaving technique.

What I'm trying to say is:
First things first. Get at least one shaveready edge, honed by someone with outstanding reputation.
Learn to shave with that razor.
Learn how to strop that razor.
That's already more than enough.
Once you can shave with confidence, and strop with confidence, you can learn how to touch-up the razor on a fine hone.
Once you've done that a few times, you can take another razor in fair but dull condition and try to hone it.
Once you've had a few successes with that, you can start buying old blades off Ebay and restore their edges to shaveability.

I'd be happy to check out a razor for you and hone it (if necessary) at no charge. I'm in Europe (Belgium). Maybe you're better off asking a US based member to look at it, but in case you want my assistance, just drop a PM.

There's good, confirmed information about stropping in the SRP Wiki: Razor stropping - Straight Razor Place Wiki

Take a deep breath, stop approaching this backwards, and you'll be shaving in no time.
A few months from now, you'll be honing your own.

Good luck,

Bart.

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Originally Posted by Utopian

I'm sure this will likely start a debate, but I disagree with steps 2 and 3. First, I don't think the strop has to be pulled as tightly as you imply. You want to prevent the leather from rolling the blade but the strop does not have to be pulled absolutely perfectly straight with great force to accomplish this. Second, I've experimented with stropping speed and I find that I get a much better stropping from a fairly rapid (not ridiculously so) stropping motion and the edge improvement is severely diminished if I go very slowly.

No doubt multiple opinions will follow.

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I really think that a smooth rhythmic stroke is all that is needed. The more you strop correctly, the more that rhythm develops and becomes comfy. I have never found any gain in excessive speed.

I'd be interested in what stones you have and what you have tried regarding honing so far.

Lynn

Maintaining and using a straight razor takes time and practise. For many, the fact that it is a skill that needs to be mastered is the reason they do it. Unfortunately we live in a world where instant success has become the expectation. It's not possible to become an expert with a straight overnight, it does take a fair amount of trial and error, but get it right and it's very satisfying. (or so I'm told, I'm still learning)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bart

I'd be happy to check out a razor for you and hone it (if necessary) at no charge. I'm in Europe (Belgium). Maybe you're better off asking a US based member to look at it, but in case you want my assistance, just drop a PM.Bart.

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I'll back Bart's offer on this side of the big Pond, If you are in the US drop me a PM...

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Originally Posted by Lynn

I really think that a smooth rhythmic stroke is all that is needed. The more you strop correctly, the more that rhythm develops and becomes comfy. I have never found any gain in excessive speed.

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I completely agree. I didn't write that as clearly as I should have. I was trying to counter the point made that going extremely slowly was the best way to strop. He said slow so I said faster. Smooth and rhythmic sounds like a better way to describe something in the middle.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bart

What is it with this thread?
Is it a "feed the newbie with as much as controversial information as possible"-fest??

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That is why I like to direct new guys to the SRP Wiki and the honing videos by Lynn and heavydutysg right off the bat. They can do their homework at their own pace with the tried and true methods shown.

Bart is right that learning to shave and strop properly, and then do touch ups, and then full honing jobs, followed by full restorations if you want to go down that route, is definately the easiest way to learn. Not so much because it's too much to grasp all at once, but more because it's easier to pin down any given problem. If you have a razor you have honed yourself which doesn't shave well, but you know you can shave with a sharp blade, and you know you don't dull the razor by poor stropping, then you can be pretty sure the razor isn't sharp enough for you. If you try to learn everything at once, then the problem may be your honing, poor stropping, or poor shave technique. That said, I think very few of us here chose the easy path, and give advice on the "Do as I say, not as I do" philosophy. Anyone can learn from their own mistakes but it takes a wise man to learn from someone elses. Heed the advice and take the easy path. Don't be too eager. It'll all come with time and patience.
As for stropping. I find that a nice rhythmic stroke is best, but I went very slow in the begining to get a feel for when the razor was contacting the strop properly. Same goes for honing too, I suppose. Slow and steady in the begining. Then build up to the pace you find most comfortable.
Learning to strop properly first will also aid in the develpment of a proper honing stroke I think. One thing at a time is the way forward.

Connor

Oh well, in defense of the controversial - Is it?

I didnt catch any

In my own defense I see that Mr. O has been a member longer than I, knows some Acronyms, and has been honing. I assumed he has seen the usual cited sources.:shrug:

He is shaving already, so in no danger of becoming bearded.



I think the best way to learn how to hone is with a microscope and face. The idea is you do not get everything at once, you progress forward toward finer, more subtle results.

A potential problem with leaving two (or I've seen three suggested) layers of electrical tape on for thw whole honing process is that you will wind up with a sharp razor, but one with a changed bevel angle or a double bevel. Thereafter if you (or someone else unsuspecting) want to hone it you either have to tape it or establish the correct bevel angle. A variation is to use the tape to get a bevel and an edge going and then remove the tape and refine the bevel to the correct 15 degrees before finishing.

Something to think about when giving advice.

Don J.

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Originally Posted by maxfarce

A potential problem with leaving two (or I've seen three suggested) layers of electrical tape on for thw whole honing process is that you will wind up with a sharp razor, but one with a changed bevel angle or a double bevel. Thereafter if you (or someone else unsuspecting) want to hone it you either have to tape it or establish the correct bevel angle. A variation is to use the tape to get a bevel and an edge going and then remove the tape and refine the bevel to the correct 15 degrees before finishing.

Something to think about when giving advice.

Don J.

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:OT
And which "correct" 15 degree angle is this????

Somewhere back in the deep dark archives of SRP you will find where one of the resident math geniuses here, actually measured razor angles and figured this stuff out not I....You would also find a thread where another enterprising member took one razor and honed it back by 1/16 inch increments trying to find the bevel failure angle...
Guess what, razors go from 8-22 degrees of angle and still work just fine and I bet if you really look you can find even more variance in the angles....
1 layer of tape changes the angle approximately 1/2 a degree (depending on blade and spine relationship) Not that I am saying more than one is recommended here, but even a ridicules amount of tape 5 layers would be 2 1/2 degrees so you are still most likely inside the extremes...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by maxfarce

A variation is to use the tape to get a bevel and an edge going and then remove the tape and refine the bevel to the correct 15 degrees before finishing.

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I'm sorry, but that sound like a great way to get in trouble. Once you remove tape, the blade pivots on the rim of the bevel, causing the very edge to not longer make contact with the hone. Depending on the width of the bevel, it takes some serious bevel correction to establish a correct bevel for the new honing angle.
The only reason to start out with extra tape is during the first stages of rebuilding an entire new bevel after a regrinding job, or heavy restoration that led to the complete removal of the original bevel. This is done to compensate for flex in the blade, when pressure is applied to speed up the rebuilding process. In any case, the extra tape needs to be removed before the new bevel is completely rebuild with regular low pressure honing.

I wouldn't recommend anyone who still needs to complete his first successful honing job (and reports he has not shaved once with a straight razor) do do fancy tricks with multiple layers of tape.
You can add one layer of tape to protect the spine form wearing, or you can choose not to. It makes not a shred of difference in the final keenness of the edge, at least not that I can discern. The only important thing is to complete the entire honing with the chosen option. Yes, there are variations and exceptions. I believe they belong in the "advanced honing section".

Bart.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by maxfarce

A potential problem with leaving two (or I've seen three suggested) layers of electrical tape on for thw whole honing process is that you will wind up with a sharp razor, but one with a changed bevel angle or a double bevel. Thereafter if you (or someone else unsuspecting) want to hone it you either have to tape it or establish the correct bevel angle. A variation is to use the tape to get a bevel and an edge going and then remove the tape and refine the bevel to the correct 15 degrees before finishing.

Something to think about when giving advice.

Don J.

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Hi Don. I am not swayed from my advice even after hearing of these potential problems. 1. the angle will be different. 2. No one will know.

There are many members who use tape. There are quite a few who use both hands. These suggestions are hardly fancy tricks Bart:D

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Originally Posted by kevint

There are many members who use tape. There are quite a few who use both hands. These suggestions are hardly fancy tricks Bart:D

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Never said they were, Kevin. I don't mind about tape. But removing tape after the bevel 's set is a recipe for frustration. If you're going to play with adding and removing tape during the same honing job, you better know damn' well what you're doing. I think that you qualify for that, but I don't think someone who hasn't been able to succesfully sharpen his first razor is not.
I never adressed honing single handed or both handed. But now that you mentionned it: I recommend turning on the strop between thumb and index finger and I also recommend honing razors singlehandedly. I started out doing both those things differently, and I had to unlearn them at some point to move on with my technique.

Bart.

good thing im always here to address this quickly. :o

I suggested leaving the tape on: hone, patch shave, strop, patch shave, take note of the effect, continue... like that.

Overnight one should remove the tape and oil the blade.

I am not recommending a lifestyle, just a casual afternoon to inform oneself: "hell yeah I can hone" would be the likely statement. 12-20 minutes; done. the rest is the path to perfection