Barber Hone Problem

I recently had a rather tuggy razor, and I was advised to give it a go on my barber hone. I did, and I got some very good results. I had another razor in similar condition, and tried the same. This time, the razor grated and scritched, and the resulting shave was pretty bad...and then, when I cleaned the hone (I used lather on the hone) I found some pits...NEW pits.

The razor had had a few small pits on it when I got it, and I sanded these away in lapping the hone. Now there were ones in new places, and I'm thinking this means the hone is starting to deteriorate. I guess the material that had been inthese pits is what had caused the gritting and damaged the edge on my razor.

I hope I'm wrong.

:cry::cry::cry:

Wow! What brand of barber hone is it? It's amazing that its degradation was so fast.

I've had several barber hones that looked like the binder was damaged by soaking in some chemical. The same plane surface felt (and looked) different even after a fresh lapping. It seemed a bit similar to what you're describing, except that in my instances the binder was more evenly degraded.

What kind of hone and what did you clean it with? Pictures available?

i am afraid i will have a little different opinion.What happens when barber hones gets old binders gets loose ?
Actually barber hone looses his ability to sharpen.it gets smooth and larger i mean a lot larger then regular size.
This is why i think the bad hone will be harmless.At least i think this way.Hope this helps.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sticky

I've had several barber hones that looked like the binder was damaged by soaking in some chemical. The same plane surface felt (and looked) different even after a fresh lapping. It seemed a bit similar to what you're describing, except that in my instances the binder was more evenly degraded.

What kind of hone and what did you clean it with? Pictures available?

---

It was a John Primble Barber Hone, I just used some 1200 grit wet/dry sandpaper to lap and sand outsome pits that were there when I got it. I didn't use any kind of cleaning chemicals, and I always dried it carefully after use. I will say, it did have a somewhat petroleum-ish smell when I got it. Is that normal?

The pits I noticed today are new, without a doubt. They're much too big not to have noticed before, though there might have been a much smaller hole that was kind of the "seed".

As you likely know, the John Primble barber hone is similar to the Swatys. I've never seen anything like what you have described. I don't suppose you have access to a microscope with time lapse photography capability? :D

I have no idea if this is the right course of action, but I wonder if perhaps you should lap it again to try to get past this bad reactive layer? Of course that presumes that lower layers will be better rather than worse. I really have no idea if that's the case but if the current layer is causing trouble, then it's of no use to you so it might as well be removed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Utopian

I have no idea if this is the right course of action, but I wonder if perhaps you should lap it again to try to get past this bad reactive layer? Of course that presumes that lower layers will be better rather than worse. I really have no idea if that's the case but if the current layer is causing trouble, then it's of no use to you so it might as well be removed.

---

Or you could just toss the hone and get another one! I have gotten several "new" barber hones off of ebay and have never seen the problem you are referring to Jim.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JMS

Or you could just toss the hone and get another one! I have gotten several "new" barber hones off of ebay and have never seen the problem you are referring to Jim.

---

Well, yeah, but where's the fun in that?

Well, as I can't exactly use it as is I might as well sand it down a bit more and see if it's any better. At least until I get the scratch together for a new one...I just spent my "spring mad money" on a new razor, and some soap, and some aftershave, and and and...
*sigh* So much to buy, so little money.

I will post some pictures when I get home from work and see what you guys think...

And no, Utopia, I didn't know the Primbles were like Swaty hones. I couldn't find any information on them at all, actually. In what way are they similar? Composition? Fineness?

My Swatys have a kind of "earthy" smell to them.

A petroleum smell might indicate some kind of solvent contamination, but I don't have a Primble in my collection. It might be normal for that hone since the 5 different ones I just tried all smell different. The Swaty and Apart do smell very similar. None, so far, remind me of petroleum.

I've never run across the problem you're describing; yet.

barber hones are relatively cheap, easy to get snd the problem you describe, if it is due to a manufacturing problem, old age, or a chemical contamination ( my bet ) the problem likely extends through the whole hone and will not be likely to be found in another hone you pick up!

I may have overstepped my knowledge when I declared the Primble to be similar to the Swatys. I know I have a Primble hone (somewhere) and I remember it to be the same size, color, and basic texture as the Swatys. I of course don't know how its actual composition compares nor do I recall what it looked like under the microscope. I have never had an actual Swaty display any sign of degradation but I have seen two Swaty clones with it. One was so bad it basicly fell apart in my hands.

I haven't noticed any particular smell to any of my Swaty or Swaty clone hones, nor have I notice a petroleum smell. I have found a lot of razor hones to have oily surfaces. I would guess this to due to the fact that a lot of other types of tool and knife hones require oil so people assumed their razor hones would need them too. I don't know if this would contribute to the pitting you described. I can't imagine how it would. If it is some sort of chemical contamination as JMS speculates, then I think that odds would be better that you could lap it away as these hones are not very porous so you might presume that the contamination did not extend far beyond the surface. On the other hand, if it is degradation of the binder, then the hone is toast.

OK, so I got home from work and checked a bit more closely.
Here's what I found on close inspection. The pits that I had sanded out apparently left some tiny remnants, and these grew larger. There were also pits where none had been before.

As for the petroleum smell, this was only on the un-sanded side, so perhaps it was surface contamination from usage.

Now, here's the weird thing. I tried polishing some stainless I had on the hone to see if any more grit came out of the pits--none did. I even tried a sharpened bit to try to pick some grit out of the holes, and I couldn't. It's hard as...well, it's really, really hard.

Strange. What do you guys think, should I keep trying to use it?

Here's a picture for your perusal:

If new pits are forming then I'd retire it (save the hone for experiments maybe).

It sounds like it would continue to damage your razors to me; as in your first post.

since your hone is different, I dont know if this applies, but a swaty I bought recently was very, very course, the seller stated he lapped it with a DMT, the surface had some pits similiar to what you describe.

I re-lapped it (not much fun) starting at 220 and working up to 2000, on each grit I started with 25 dry laps and then went wet, after all that the finish came out just a smooth as my other swatys, only time will tell if it lasts, but the lapping method does make a difference IMHO

Are the pits catching the blade at all? If they are not projecting up, and only extend down, they should be irrelevant. A lot of hones, natural and sythetic, have pitting, but of course most of them are only visible under the microscope!
Honestly, I have no freaking clue why the pits are growing. If I understand what you described, the pits grew without using the hone but did not get worse when you used the hone with some stainless steel. Is that correct? Did the pits grow without any exposure to water???

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Utopian

Are the pits catching the blade at all? If they are not projecting up, and only extend down, they should be irrelevant. A lot of hones, natural and sythetic, have pitting, but of course most of them are only visible under the microscope!
Honestly, I have no freaking clue why the pits are growing. If I understand what you described, the pits grew without using the hone but did not get worse when you used the hone with some stainless steel. Is that correct? Did the pits grow without any exposure to water???

---

Utopian, the problem is that the pits grew/appeared IN USE, and the material that used to be in them was released into the lather I was using on the hone and scratched up my blade. The stainless I tried polishing did not have any problems with this phenomenon.

Currentman, I actually did the majority of the lapping on this with a diamond plate, and just did final polishing with sandpaper...So that's an odd coincidence. Hmmm...OK, back to the papers for a (LONG) while, I guess.

Fun time!

Thanks for the advice, guys.

Wow, that's too bad. Of course if it's damaging your blades you can't use it. I guess all you can do is either lap it further or use it as a paperweight.

OK, so I FINALLY got around to lapping this guy again. I ground it down flat on wet/dry sandpaper on glass, then polished up through 1500 grit. It is silky smooth, not a pit in sight, but not glossy--is that ok?
I'll give it a few tries with my DA, the brunt of my abuse at this point, and see if it gives up any particles. I have a feeling it won't...but that may just be wishful thinking. It was really hard to lap, which I take as a good sign....

Thanks for your advice guys, and I'll let you know how it goes.

Good luck!

Glad it worked out for you, I agree lapping these little hones is a PITA :rant: but well worth it

I would also add that if you use lather on it, after you touch up a few razors you will see the shine begin to return, it wont be exactly as it was when new, but it will be enough to make you happy

Wellll, one hone down, no problems, and MAN...did it put a good edge on that razor. I got a FANTASTIC shave...

I hope it lasts!

I have been using lather, Currentman. I'd be glad with a little gloss, it looks nifty, but I was just worried that it might effect the polishing performance. Not a problem?

Thank God it worked out, but I cant imagine what caused the situation in the first place, unless as Utopian said, surface degradation.

Thanks, N2S, I'm glad too, but I'm reserving final judgment. The last problem happened AFTER two good hones, remember, so I'll still be nervous for the next couple of uses. But it has pretty much decided me--I need a Swaty. For "backup", you see.
;)

That was a really, really good shave I got yesterday. Maybe the sharpest straight edge that has yet touched my face...

I know what you mean about backups, Ive got way too many in the desk drawer now!:rolleyes:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JimR

I have been using lather, Currentman. I'd be glad with a little gloss, it looks nifty, but I was just worried that it might effect the polishing performance. Not a problem?

---

Not a problem at all. The Swaty instructions declare that if the hone glazes over, it can be refinished with an emory cloth. Nowadays that translates to using a high grit sandpaper.

I'm glad to hear you got at least one good honing out of it!