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Thread: Honing a warped blade

  1. #11
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    These are pics I took before I started the taping procedure and before any honing on the 1K Shapton. Sorry they are so small, they are very high quality and I had to reduce them so much to get it to upload. Let me know if you need better ones. I also forgot to mention the stone I have is the Shapton Glass not the Shapton Pro series. The next step up I have at the moment is a Norton 4K/8K. Not sure if that is too big of a jump from 1K, but I'm just trying to get some practice. Obviously this isn't the best one for practicing since it's such a pain, but if I can get this one, it will be a major accomplishment.
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    Last edited by papasote; 03-29-2009 at 02:16 AM.

  2. #12
    Senior Member kenneyty's Avatar
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    1K to 4k is fine. I use my DMT 1200, then the 4/8, then Chinese 12k. I'm having the same issues you are on a couple of my blades, so I'm paying attention here. Thanks for starting the thread.

  3. #13
    Senior Member smythe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by papasote View Post
    It's a Wade & Butcher Sheffield, Extra Hollow Ground. I am using a Shapton 1K to set the bevel, I am very new, and my patience is fine (I am just afraid of honing too much and messing something up). About the pressure, I have to apply a slight amount of pressure on the bevel by lifting the spine to kind of keep it on the stone. I am not a good judge of if this is too much, but sometimes I catch myself feeling like I should lighten up a bit. Whether I keep the blade on the stone the entire pass (heel leading with a slight rolling pressure throughout the pass from heel to point to make even the parts that don't touch consistently), or if I do the X-pattern and have it some off the stone, I still can't get anything even from heel to point.
    OK I just re-red your post where you mentioned you “lift the spine?” (see where I highlighted the portion of your post).

    You should never have to lift the spine at any time when setting the bevel. Both the spine and edge MUST be in constant contact with the hone at all times during the stroke or you will never properly set the bevel. Now I could have misunderstood your post... if so then read below.

    Also are you familiar with the TNT (Thumb Nail Test)? This test is very important when setting the bevel.
    Now I do not have any experience with the Shapton hone, it may not be as fast a cutter as the water stones I use, but it will get the job done just the same.

    Sometimes, if you have a problem blade, you may apply some pressure during the stroke to remove more material to the get the bevels to meet, you may use a finger on your other hand to assist, rest the finger in the belly of the blade (hope you have a stone holder). Don’t forget to “hone with the warp” as I mentioned earlier. You need to do the TNT many times to monitor your progress. As it gets sharper you must reduce the pressure until the blade passes the TNT. By that time you would be honing with only the weight of the blade.
    The blade will pass the TNT when it digs into your fingernail and offers even resistance while you slide the edge along your nail. You may notice some parts if the edge will grab and other parts glide without resistance, in this case you need to concentrate your honing on those parts that glide until those parts pass the test. Once the blade passes the TNT along the entire edge, give it about 3- 4 more light strokes and you are done setting the bevel, then proceed to the higher grit hones…

    It is quite OK to jump from 1K to 4K and then 8K… almost everyone who hones with a set of hones does just that.

    Now let me say one thing though, it is very frustrating for someone who is new to honing to start with a warped blade, in fact, it can at times be challenging for the experienced. I would suggest you get a "straight" blade and practice with that so you become familiar with the various sharpness tests (TNT and TPT), however not to worry, with some patience you will get this blade sharp.

    I will continue to watch this thread so let me know how it works out.
    Last edited by smythe; 03-29-2009 at 07:44 AM.

  4. #14
    Let's keep it simple... Robert1988's Avatar
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    Hello, since I started the thread, I should also chime in...
    I forgot to mention that I used a 45 degree X pattern stroke to increase the razor's heel and toe time spent on the surface of the hone... Also, try to do the Magic Marker Test to see where the metal is being removed and where it isn't...

    +1 on mr. Smythe and the Thumb Nail Test... It is just a great toll to see where is the bevel set correctly...

    And don't do the greatest mistake, DON'T GIVE UP... You'll see that the razor which gave you the most trouble during the honing process will reward you with smoothest BBS shaves... Like it has a soul and wants to say: "Thank You for bringing me back to life..."

  5. #15
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    First off, Thanks Robert1988 for starting the thread (I know this may have gone in a different direction since I've been posting), and second, thanks to everyone who has been sharing their opinions.

    Ok, Smythe: in theory, the edge and spine should be touching, but it is almost like the smile prevents that (or the hump on the spine). Not sure what causes that, every razor I have does this same thing. Anyway, when the spine is flat, 80-90% from the point down is touching the stone, but the other % to the heal does not. 1) If I honed away maintaining contact with the spine first and foremost, are you saying that eventually it will even itself out? and is that what you are suggesting in the first place. 2) I wouldn't say I am exactly lifting the spine intentionally, but rather when the edge is flush with the stone, the point portion of the spine lifts up. So, when I put my finger in the middle of the belly, the edge goes down and the spine comes up (at the point). 3) I don't see where you mentioned earlier about honing with the warp, unless you were referring to the "rocking" movement. 4) I am familiar with the TNT and yes, the middle portion definitely passes, the point is ok, but the heel fails misserably! (almost no feeling at all). 5) Fortunately, I already had a smaller and lighter razor that appeared to have a bevel set and I was able to get it honed on the 4K/8K.

    Robert1988: I did start with a heel leading (I wouldn't say quite 45 deg) stroke. Then I tried the X-stroke where the heel comes off the stone at the end of the stroke (I guess that is the generic x-stroke movement). The magic marker test was difficult for me. I didn't find that I learned much other than I missing parts of the bevel pretty badly. I tried numerous attempts to try different strokes, but I never could pinpoint what I was doing to actually hone the tough parts. I will admit that I was in a hurry at that time and I only put the ink on the bevel once, so after I had the opportunity to see where I was going, I didn't reapply the marker to double check or work on anything. I only have myself to blame for that one. I will continue to use this method until I get more experience at least.

    By the way, I also noticed that the bevel I am cutting is very very thin (maybe 1mm) on both this troublesome razor and the other one I did (using no tape). Does that matter? I would actually think that tape would cause this because the higher the spine is from the stone, the less metal is touching on the bevel, but I didn't use tape on my other razor. Interesting... it's just that I noticed a professionally honed razor had a lot more shinny metal than what I am producing.

    I hope I am not dragging this thing out too long. It's just kind of confusing when we aren't face-to-face to see what we're talking about. I really appreciate everyone's help and patience.


  6. #16
    Senior Member smythe's Avatar
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    Not a problem, the learning curve of honing is steep at the beginning but with practice it gets easier, so keep posting of you have issues.

    It is quite normal to have bevels larger than 1mm, some "near wedge" ground razors have much larger than that... I have seen some bevels extending well into the belly of the blade. The only way to set bevels on a razor (or any blade) is to remove steel, and this makes for wider bevels but eventually it will get sharp.

    The thing is in a perfect world, all parts of the edge and the spine will lay absolutely flat on the hone for each side of the blade, and setting the bevel or sharpening would be no trouble at all, but this is rarely ever the case. For the average razor, there is a slight twist or warp, and some part of the edge or spine will not be in contact with the surface of the hone when laid flat, so we have to be creative to get them sharp. Yes, in some cases you could simply hone until it straightens itself out but this is not always practical as the edge may develop a bad frown or you would have to remove too much material.

    I think you may have a twisted razor… In any case this is what I do to get things going if the blade is twisted or warped…
    At the start of the stroke, tilt the razor by lightly pushing the tail down. The toe end of the razor will lift off the hone but the spine and edge at the heel will still contact the hone about an inch from the long edge of the hone. At the end of the stroke the spine and edge at the heel end of the razor will “fall” off the hone and the spine and toe of the edge will now be contacting the hone. Don’t tilt it so much that contact is at the very edge of the hone, you want the edge to be in flat contact with that area about an inch or so nearest to the long edge of the hone… if you hone with your right hand, it is that area nearest to your right hand… the reverse if you are left handed.
    In effect, it will be as if you have a narrower hone, this will get you honing the entire edge of the blade even if the blade is badly twisted… it will also ensure all the edge and some part of the spine is touching the surface of the stone at the same time during the stroke even of the spine is warped.
    If you have a wide hone it will take some practice to concentrate the contact only at that “strip” of the hone… I call it “honing on the last 3rd of the long edge of the stone”.

    I hope I explained it right. Let me know how that works out.
    Last edited by smythe; 03-31-2009 at 05:16 AM.

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