"Touching Up" Guidelines?

I'm wondering if there is a more direct guide to touching up an already honed razor than the brief mentions in the wiki--for example, the best way to use a barber's hone, or a coticule, or a pasted strop to maintain your edge.

By direct, I mean with specific information: a recommended honing pattern, i.e. 3 laps on a barber hone then test; no more than 5 laps on a pasted strop etc.,or even a recommended maintenance regimen for each of the various ways that people can keep their honed razors in shape. Some people say they use a barber's hone or coticule to touch up their edge every week--is this a good idea? How many laps are ok, and how many are too much?

Maybe to start with, what are some good touch-up hone recommendations, in addition to a barber's hone? I know that some people use a coticule, what about a 12,000 Shapton Pro? Or a 15,000?

And, how exactly do you use a coticule for touch ups? Water only, for ten or so laps? More? Less?

Thanks for any help you can give.

Jim

Excellent questions! I have been trying to get straight (pun intended!) answers to this for a bit -- I only have about a half dozen shaves so far. Here is what I have heard/learned:

• I bought a Double Arrow and simple leather strop as a starter set. Among all the printed directions that came with it was mention of the .5u CrO2 paste on the rough side of the strop. The advice was to do 4 or 5 laps on the CrO2 when it is needed. I don't know how to determine when it is needed because I don't have enough experience to know if the rough shave I get is due to dull blade or bad technique. Since my very first shave was rough I presume that was bad technique but how do I know what the situation is 10 shaves down the road? I suppose just try the CrO2 and see if it helps.
• I asked another dealer and was told it is NOT a good idea to use a hanging strop with pastes because the flexibility will tend to round the edge. A paddle strop was recommended for this.
• The dealer mentioned above recommended an 8000 grit Naniwa Superstone for touch-up. Between this and proper use of paste I could go for a year before a full re-honing was needed. Now I am confused here because in other contexts the 8000 grit Norton is considered part of the honing process (and not the last part, either) so I don't know how another 8000 grit can be considered a touch-up stone.

I think I am going to forget the touch-up stone for now and depend on paste. paddle strop and professional re-honing until I get more comfortable with the whole process. But I am not ready to say that is my final plan yet -- still investigating.

P.S. Some good advice from the stater set instructions:

• Never shave naked.
• If you drop the razor don't try to catch it.

Touch ups are easy, whether you are wondering about when or how much. When to do a touch up is as soon as the razor is not performing as well as it used to. That's it. Don't wait until the shave is unbearable. Do it as soon as you notice a decline in the shave. As far as how many strokes, just start with a few strokes such as 3-5 on a barber hone or 10 on a coticule. Then shave and decide if you need to do more or not. In other words, when doing touch ups I prefer to sneak up on it. I have seven razors in my locker at a gym and I keep them in a leather roll. If the razor is fine, I put the razor in with the monkey tail up and if it needs to be honed I put it in with the tail down to remind me to touch it up. If I do the touch up and shave and it's still not right, I just put the tail down again and keep repeating till I'm happy with the edge again.

In my opinion, Lynn's adage of "less is more" is never more true than when applied to touch ups.

Edit: Yes, use the coticule with just water for touch ups. I've never used a Shapton but I'd assume (guess) it would be in the range of 5 to 10 strokes.

Personally when a razor starts to pull I do about 4-5 strokes on the swaty followed by about 10-15 on the cr0.

I just got a yellow coticule recently so I might change my technique and use that instead of the swaty.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Utopian

I've never used a Shapton but I'd assume (guess) it would be in the range of 5 to 10 strokes.

---

That's what works for me (16K glassstone)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Utopian

Touch ups are easy, whether you are wondering about when or how much. When to do a touch up is as soon as the razor is not performing as well as it used to. That's it. Don't wait until the shave is unbearable. Do it as soon as you notice a decline in the shave. As far as how many strokes, just start with a few strokes such as 3-5 on a barber hone or 10 on a coticule. Then shave and decide if you need to do more or not. In other words, when doing touch ups I prefer to sneak up on it. I have seven razors in my locker at a gym and I keep them in a leather roll. If the razor is fine, I put the razor in with the monkey tail up and if it needs to be honed I put it in with the tail down to remind me to touch it up. If I do the touch up and shave and it's still not right, I just put the tail down again and keep repeating till I'm happy with the edge again.

In my opinion, Lynn's adage of "less is more" is never more true than when applied to touch ups.

Edit: Yes, use the coticule with just water for touch ups. I've never used a Shapton but I'd assume (guess) it would be in the range of 5 to 10 strokes.

---

Another post that saves me a lot of typing.:)
If the touch-up is done at the first signs of edge deteriorating, and if you use hones to do it, all it takes is a few swipes on a finishing hone.

Bart.

Awesome, this is just the kind of info I've been looking for, and I got it by writing a long, rambling confused post when I was dead tired. Thanks guys!

To sum up:
When-When the razor starts to seem dull, even after a good stropping.
How:
Barber's hone--3-5 passes and test until it shaves well.
Coticule--10 or so passes until it shaves well.
Other high grit stone--same as Coticule.

I think that sometimes the honing info that is shared here is mostly related to restoring old edges that are as dull as a butter knife; you know, bevel setting, sharpening, polishing etc. Touch-ups, or maintaintence of a shaving edge, sometimes get lost in the mix. Good info guys, great thread.

Why only 3-5 on the barber hone, but 10 on the coticule?
Isn't the coticule a faster cutter than the barber hone?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by smythe

Why only 3-5 on the barber hone, but 10 on the coticule?
Isn't the coticule a faster cutter than the barber hone?

---

A Coticule, when used with water only, is a very slow cutter.
Everything I read on this forum, suggests that most all barber hones are much faster than that. I don't own one, so this is no first hand experience. I base myself on the fact that barber hones are reported very easy to overhone, which I think is something that primarily happens on hones with high cutting power.

From what I've heard you can't really overhone on a coticule so more strokes do not hurt the blade either.

BTW Bart, I got my parents to pick me up a DMT 1200 while they're in Florida! That should solve my problems with the coticule bevel setting business. Now I'll be able to use the DMT, Belgian blue/slurry then coticule with water.

Would a few passes on the coticule with slurry after the DMT 1200 help or?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bart

A Coticule, when used with water only, is a very slow cutter.
Everything I read on this forum, suggests that most all barber hones are much faster than that. I don't own one, so this is no first hand experience. I base myself on the fact that barber hones are reported very easy to overhone, which I think is something that primarily happens on hones with high cutting power.

---

Sorry to be a pain about this Bart... maybe I missed it... but I don't remember reading anything on this forum that suggest the average barber hone being a faster cutter than the average coticule waterstone, with water only.

Could you or anyone shed some light on this?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dups

Would a few passes on the coticule with slurry after the DMT 1200 help or?

---

I'm still getting the hang of this honing melarky myself, but that is exactly what I do. I do this for 2 reasons.
1. The great feedback you get from the coticule with slurry gives me a real good idea when the edge is ready to progress from this crucial stage.
2. It does seem to smooth things out a bit, and speed things up on the next grit.

I mostly do it for the first reason though.

Connor

Smythe, I appreciate your hesitation with this. Initially, I did the 3 to 5 strokes with the barber hones because that's what was recommended in ALL of the instructions I have ever found with them. I have seen a few barber hone instructions that recommend more along the lines of "as many as needed," but the 3-5 recommendation is remarkably consistent. Anyway, I followed the advice and found that most of the time it was sufficient. So, now I do 3-5 because it works.

Also, I have found the 10 strokes with water on a coticule is also sufficient for most coticules and razors.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by smythe

Sorry to be a pain about this Bart... maybe I missed it... but I don't remember reading anything on this forum that suggest the average barber hone being a faster cutter than the average coticule waterstone, with water only.

Could you or anyone shed some light on this?

---

It is often reported that barber hones are very prone to cause a wire edge. The way I look at honing, that suggests that they can be pretty aggresive cutters, relative to their grit. SRP member Johnny J used to do his entire honing on a selection of barber hones (I don't know if he still does it)
Here's the key post out of a very interesting thread of his:
http://straightrazorpalace.com/246647-post66.html

While I further have zero experience with barber hones, I do know something about Coticules.
When used with water, they're among the slowest hones I ever came accross. 10 laps on a Coticule with water only works on a razor with a narrow bevel and at the very first signs of edge deterioration. Otherwise it takes more than that, and often, touching up on a Coticule with water literally doesn't cut it at all. It think that is because it is such a pure polisher in "water mode". Great to remove scratches left by previous hones, but pretty lame for removing solid steel, in order to refine the bevel tip. That is also the reason why a Coticule with water only performs its magic on edges that are already very keen.
Dylandog was about to do some experiments on seeking keenness off a barber hone prior to finsishing it on his Coticule. I don't know how it turned out. I may have missed it when he reported results, or maybe it just didn't work and he trashed the whole idea.

Maybe I'm wrong with correlating the ability to produce a wire edge, with abrasive power. But I sure know that 3 to 5 laps on a Coticule with water isn't going to resort much effect at all, upon touching-up a razor, while it seems the general consensus of laps to do for touching up on a barber hone.

Best regards,
Bart

Well let me say I have zero experience with a the citicule, so I am basing my inquiry on a bit of logic and experience with my Norton 8K water hone and the few barber hones I have in my possession.

I always thought that in general, water hones were fast cutters, because the binder is soft and thus creates a slurry, even with a small amount of water splashed on the surface, this makes for speedy metal removal, barber hones on the other hand the binder is hard and so don’t generally make a slurry, and glasses quickly.

Bart, I have read the post, though I never herd of any of the hones Jonny_J used in his honing process, I will admit, barber hones come in an innumerable verity of grits, abrasives, binders and surface texture (and honing skill), all of which affects the speed and quality of the honing process…

Utopian that's interesting, but judging from the amount of material removed using the barber hones in my possession versus the removal using the water hone I would think the water hone removes more steel, so if removal of material creates a wire, then how does the barber hone create a wire with so few strokes?... is the coticule that slow? and the barber hone that fast?

Let me emphasize again... I could be way of base equating the cutting speed of the coticule to the N8K, but only (my understanding) because it is a water hone, and again my understanding is, water hones are faster cutters (faster than ceramics).

I seem to remember someone started a thread "a compendium of hones and grits" or something like that, but I cannot find it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bart

10 laps on a Coticule with water only works on a razor with a narrow bevel and at the very first signs of edge deterioration. Otherwise it takes more than that, and often, touching up on a Coticule with water literally doesn't cut it at all.

---

As the saying goes, you learn something new everyday. I was under the impression that the coticule was renowned as a versatile all around hone, especially for finishing and touch ups. At least that's why I bought one :thinking:. Could anyone shed some light on the practice of touch ups with a yellow coticule only?

Don't jump ship on the coticule yet. It depends on the individual coticule what kind of response you get. I would start a touch up with just water and maybe 10 strokes and then shave. If it's not up to snuff, do another ten and test shave. If you get bored with that, then maybe make a bit of a slurry and do 10 strokes and then rinse the hone and then do maybe 20 to 50 strokes with just water.

The wonderful thing about touch ups is that you know that you HAD a sharp edge and you are trying to do a little at a time to get it back to that sharp edge. The wonderful thing about the coticule, as opposed to a barber hone, is that you cannot over do the number of strokes on the coticule. Do NOT lose faith in the power of the coticule. I agree with, and fully attest to, the claim that the coticule is the most versatile of hones.

In all respect:
There is no substitute for getting acquainted with your hones, and that counts double for natural hones. Those of us that have, can fill thread after thread with recipes and generalizations about our honing, and believe me, we will. But those recommendations will always remain no more than a light beacon on a misty ocean. No newcomer is dismissed from doing his own homework.

A few examples:
You might still be happily shaving with a razor, when I am already on the hones, "in urgent need of a touch-up".
Your Coticule may release the faintest hint of garnets, even when used with water, while mine may not.
Your idea of zero pressure might be quite different than mine.
Your razor may be a resilient hone-buster, and mine might be a "Double Buck" (sic), that already becomes sharp when you keep it in a drawer next to a hone.
I might be someone, that tries a tool once, says "nah" and goes out to buy another. You might be someone that hangs in for month after month and achieve successes you couldn't have imagined during the first month of use.

Now...lighting the beacon:

the cross section of an edge is a triangle. We want the tip of the triangle to be sharp and well defined. The closer we come to our desired end result, the more subtle our shaping tools need to be. In reverse correlation, those subtle tools get us nowhere when we start using them too early. Doing a touch up, is in essence nothing more than repeating the same thing you did last time when the edge was at that level. (Ron already pointed that out in a much more concise English than I'll ever master). Hence: If your Coticule got you there in the first place, it 'll get you there again. The only thing you need to learn to assess, is how far to fall back to pick up the edge. It is clear that it depends on a number of criteria:
1. How dull did you allow the razor to get?
2. Did you introduce convexity on a pasted strop?
3. Does your shaves introduce a number of small microchips in the edge of the razor in question, that build up shave after shave?
4. How sharp was the razor initially. Was it only barely qualifying for stepping up to the Coticule with water, or did it meet the required keenness of the previous hone with "keenness to spare"?

All questions that need to be answered on a one by one basis.
That said, for my personal razor collection, my abrasive beard, and the hones I use, I always need to fall back further than a Coticule with just water. Every 10 to 30 shaves, depending on the razor, if it starts to show signs of deterioration, I just rehone it. It usually takes 20-30 laps on a Coticule with light slurry, and whatever I do next to build up the keenness again. Takes me less than 15 minutes.
I strop 20 laps on linen and 60 on leather before each shave. When the edge starts showing signs of deterioration I might do 60 laps on the linen. Often that gets it going for a little while longer.

Bart.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bart

In all respect:
There is no substitute for getting acquainted with your hones, and that counts double for natural hones. Those of us that have, can fill thread after thread with recipes and generalizations about our honing, and believe me, we will. But those recommendations will always remain no more than a light beacon on a misty ocean. No newcomer is dismissed from doing his own homework.

---

:rofl2: I'm in complete agreement with the above statement. And please don't get me wrong, I'm not looking for a step by step manual here. I prefer to think that the guidelines given by more experienced members is an invaluable stepping stone to developing our own procedures and habits. It's just handy having this kind of resource at my (our) disposal;)

If anyone else has an opinion on good touch-up hones feel free to put in your $0.02.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ryan82

If anyone else has an opinion on good touch-up hones feel free to put in your $0.02.

---

You bought a coticule already.
You're done.
:D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Utopian

You bought a coticule already.
You're done.
:D

---

Yeah, you're probably right. I just keep hearing that Shapton 16k calling my name, or is that an escher, or a Swaty, or ........ oh, HAD's a bi:cenh, isn't it?

Well, among those options, at least a Swaty is cheap. You might want to start with that and see if you can stop there. I've got a few Eschers but so far I have avoided the Shapton allure. I'm trying to convince myself that I don't need them. I'm trying to convince myself that my natural stones, like my Chinese 12Ks, my coticules, my Eschers, and my Japanese stones, plus the fact that my wife will eventually catch me, are all that I really need and that Shaptons are just an unnatural fad in which I don't need to get caught up.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Utopian

Well, among those options, at least a Swaty is cheap. You might want to start with that and see if you can stop there. I've got a few Eschers but so far I have avoided the Shapton allure. I'm trying to convince myself that I don't need them. I'm trying to convince myself that my natural stones, like my Chinese 12Ks, my coticules, my Eschers, and my Japanese stones, plus the fact that my wife will eventually catch me, are all that I really need and that Shaptons are just an unnatural fad in which I don't need to get caught up.

---

yuh, like that's gonna last. you are so doomed. you will just buy the whoe shapton system, pond and all, when the dam of your resistance bursts.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by loueedacat

yuh, like that's gonna last. you are so doomed. you will just buy the whoe shapton system, pond and all, when the dam of your resistance bursts.

---

:roflmao Oh, and don't forget the coveted Shapton diamond on glass lapping plate!

Where does a Chinese 12k fit into this discussion. I have a 12k but do not have a couticle. It is my impression that the 12k is a slower cutter than a couticle, so for touch-up would I use the 12k with slurry, then water, then dry (then paste and leather)?

+1 Utopian. I have several Barber hones that are my first line of defense. I even have a copy of the old instructions, it say's 3 - 5 strokes. I'll have to post a pic if I can find it. I think it's on my work computer. I think touching up can be a personal thing. I don't believe there is any set pattern. To quote Bruce Lee, I favor the formless. In other words, whatever works for you and your razor. Whatever the situation calls for. Keep a log, what works on a Wade and Butcher, may not work on your Duck. Ryan, my friend, Don't loose faith in the Coti of yours, it is a very versatile hone and a "must have" as far as I'm concerned when it comes to Str8 Shaving. Just remember that when you hone, you leave behind steel. So Truly, Less is More here. It depends what i start with when my razor drags, sometimes, Crox, Sometimes Diamond paste, mosty though the Barber hone because several of them sit out on my counter with my razor rotation. If the Barber hone doesn't work, I may use the Coticule with water only, 15 strokes average depending on the blade and how bad it is, if that doesn't do it, I make a slurry, still not enough, i go to the BBW....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ryan82

Yeah, you're probably right. I just keep hearing that Shapton 16k calling my name, or is that an escher, or a Swaty, or ........ oh, HAD's a bi:cenh, isn't it?

---

Maybe we can get a package deal on a couple of Shapton 16k's, I've been wanting one for a while....

You'll never have enough hones, There's alway's going to be that one you want......

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Roadkill

Where does a Chinese 12k fit into this discussion. I have a 12k but do not have a couticle. It is my impression that the 12k is a slower cutter than a couticle, so for touch-up would I use the 12k with slurry, then water, then dry (then paste and leather)?

---

I use mine on an already shave ready razor to bring the edge out just a bit more. With a C12K, you do 50 with a slurry, 100 without, it is a slow cutter. 12k is a polisher, but if your razor is just starting to pull a bit, you can try the 12k, but it may take a while. It's an excellent hone, just slowwwww.

I've been shaving for 3 years with a straight i have that many razors so i don't seem to ever get to the pulling stage . but i no one thing for sure bbw then yellow will defanatley bring a razor back or improve a good razor that is what i find and of coarse chr.5 for good measure . I will let a razor get to that stage and i would probably try yellow if that did'nt work i'd go bbw test shave if good add yellow and then chr.5. i no i could try ch.5 and drop back to yellow if that does'nt work drop back to bbw and then finish yellow , chr.5 that will work every time that is what i find to be consistant.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ryan82

Yeah, you're probably right. I just keep hearing that Shapton 16k calling my name, or is that an escher, or a Swaty, or ........

---

Must be the esher, or Swaty calling. The Shapton doesn't need to call out to anyone. It just is.
ohmmmm.... :rofl2:

OK, so here's the deal-0 I tried to use my Coticule with water to touch up an edge, and it just didn't feel good at all. It cut, sure enough, but not comfortable. I gave that edge three passes on a barber's hone and it felt like magic. Just whisked away the whiskers. Is that normal? I think I gave the blade 10 laps on the cot...should I have tried more?

I did strop after the cot, and NOT the barber. Maybe my stopping is weak.

I'm no expert but I think the coticule is a very slow cutter compare to a barber hone. You should probably try about 40 passes on the coticule with plain water.

Well, it depends on the razor and the coticule as they each cut differently. I suppose the next time you need to do a touch up you should try more strokes if you want to use the coticule. Three strokes for a barber hone is normal. Who knows how many strokes will work for your coticule? :shrug:Obviously it's more than 10!
Just keep trying more strokes and test shaving till you figure it out. You might find that you need to go back to slurry and then to water. On the other hand, if you barber hone is doing the job, you could just stick with that.

I am convinced that barber hones (the finishers) do not remove much (material) like other hones, but they simply burnish the edge... similar to what a "steel" does to a kitchen knife.

I think defanatly need a good 50 on coticule won't do any harm . I'd do 50 bbw then coti 50 defanatley works .

50 with slurry on BBW and then yellow or 50 BBW without slurry and just water?

bbw slurry yellow just water or slurry light slurry try and see what works best for you

Here's where I've come to after playing around for a few years - FWIW. When the performance of an edge starts to diminish, I go 5-10 laps on chrom ox. This usually brings it back to peak. I can usually do this 3-5 times. When that stops working, I go to the Chinese 12K for 30-50 laps, then the chrom ox for 5-10 laps. If that isn't getting the job done, I go back to the Norton 8K for 5-10 laps, then back up through the Chinese and chrom ox. I've been very happy with this set up for the past few months. I've had mixed results with the coticule and other natural stones. I should also point out that I haven't taken the time to methodically explore the way some of you have. :hmmm:

Jordan

Jordan, your progression sounds just like mine, but with different stones. I use the same chrome routine, bringing the edge back until you finally need to hit the stones