Shave test Failure--How Far to drop back?

OK, after the chipping incident from this thread, I finall got my DA straight and smooth. I used Bart's Cot/BBW/Cot progression--the Cot with slurry to clean up the edge, then BBW to refine and then wet cot to polish. I used the TPT and the HHT throughout to check the edge, but I am by no means good enough with either to have a real idea of the shave readiness of an edge. When I got to where I thought the edge felt smooth and sticky at each point, I progressed to the next step.

I finally had what I felt was a good edge--Popping hairs a centimeter above my ar, and sticky and smooth on my thumb, and this mornign I shaved. it was rough going--it tugged and scraped, BUT....I got a good shave. Weird, but true--not BBS, by any means, but certainly closer than a bad blade should really give.

I am not satisfied with the edge, and I'm wondering, how far back in the progression should I drop to get a really sharp edge? Back to BBW w/ slurry? Cot w/ Slurry? Or give it another 100 laps on Cot w/ water only?

Thanks, as always,
Jim

I use that progression but with out the yellow for setting bevel. I just do bbw another 75 and then yellow water 75 to 100 it won't over hone i have repeated two or three times. I do find that the yellow with to thicker a slurry gives me an edge that shaves but grabs a little as shaving but still shaves when it does that i drop back to 4k 8k then bbw and yellow water if i use realy thin misty milky slurry on the yellow that never dulls my edge.Thick slurry does not give me a fine enough ege.i think you need to do alot more work on blue i some times do 150 laps on blue test shave on blue if good then finish on yellow and test a gain and then i try yellow with light slurry finish on water test again and see if you notice a differance decide what you prefer the shave of just blue is very good.Also i liked of yellow with light slurry. Also you may not of set the bevel 100 percent on your yelloe to begin with. i do find with belgiums when i shave my razor tends to grab a little then slice through beard

Thanks Gary. I didn't actually do so much work on blue. Maybe I'll drop down to a really light slurry on the Coticule, then bbw w/ slurry on a full set of 100+ laps then refine on the coticule with water...That description you gave, it grabs a little but still shaves, is spot on. It's like, a very SMOOTH edge, but not so sharp? Does that even make sense?

Would it add at all to the post cot+water edge to give it some laps on a Shapton pro 12k?

it is not to the point where some more linen and leather may bring it up?

If not I might guess some more cot and water would do. which you could test shave, and if that is not keen enough, perhaps as Bart has written about you could keen up on the synthetic followed by cot again.

Either way I am a believer in following each hone with a patch of beard shaving to check progress and calibrate the feel of any other tests you use to feel on the face. Add to that the view in the scope and you can really start to sort things out.

what you describe really sounds like shaving direct from the coticule; aggressive, definite but slight, yet not unpleasant "tug" , fairly quick and clean with sub-BBS tendency:cool:

Isn't Bart's rule of thumb BBW with light slurry for keenness and yellow with water only to smooth it out ? Following that advice I think you should go back to the blue. If a razor tugs and pulls I don't consider it shave ready.

With me a razor like that may shave the hair on my cheeks but I can't suffer through trying to get my chin and mustache with it and will take it back to the hones. You'll have a great feeling of accomplishment when you get it there as well as a smooth shave. :tu

Thanks guys. I guess I'll try both the linen/leather AND the BBW w/ Slurry, just because I can. :D

And yes, Jimmy, I think the satisfaction of shaving with a blade I honed myself (and I think I will really be able to say I HONED this one!!!) will be more than enough reward for the time invest.

I think I had the same experience comming off the Coticule.. it passed all the tests, popped hair without a problem and the razor shaved well enough but felt really harsh... pulling the hairs and very uncomfortable.. Then I finished the razor with 10 strokes on CrO and the razor was good..

Maybe my strokes on the coticule where not reallysmooth enough or I did something else wrong but a couple of strokes on CrO fixed it.

My last honing job I stropped the razor on newspaper after finishing on the coticule.. that really helped a lot.. It was my smoothest shave from a razor I honed myself..

Maarten

Newspaper, you say? Now that's an idea! Thanks, Maarten!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JimR

Thanks Gary. I didn't actually do so much work on blue. Maybe I'll drop down to a really light slurry on the Coticule, then bbw w/ slurry on a full set of 100+ laps then refine on the coticule with water...That description you gave, it grabs a little but still shaves, is spot on. It's like, a very SMOOTH edge, but not so sharp? Does that even make sense?

Would it add at all to the post cot+water edge to give it some laps on a Shapton pro 12k?

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It does make sense its happend to me i took a shave ready razor when i first got my coticule the razor shaved but not 100 percent smooth. So i got my new coti from invisable edge lapped it flat with dmtc. I created a slurry i did'nt think it was thick but i now no it was through more use of coto. I honed 25 slurry 25 water stropped and tryed it on one of regular clients as i had no stubble at the time. I THOUGHT what it is strugling to shave i did again worked a slurry up same process even worse i could'ny understand. posted my experiance on the forum and bart helped me out i did 100 laps extra fine with plain water and it rescued razor back to shaving. ever since i have purchased the bbw another bbw coticule combo only a small one. I use light slurry literaly like milk misty. the bbw and yellow plain with water always gives a great smooth shave if done correctly you or should i say i never have to use chr.5 i have all the paste i have tryed them but does'nt make a big differance any more .After my nortons i always used paste not the case with naturals in my opinion.I'm not an expert but i am always tying differant methods. Just try 150 laps with blue slurry gradualy diluting to water and check tpt every 30 passes. then do 60 on linen same on leather and also do black marker just to make sure egde is making full contact with hone i always do that ithink many others do. after stropping do hht if it passes then there is a good chance razor will shave i use chest hair. Test shave if its good then do 75 on yellow to further polish with water.

In my experience, the Blue/slurry - Coticule/water progression has a narrow landing zone. You really need to get the last bit of sharpness off the Blue, or it the results will lack a bit in the sharpness department. I have to disagree with Maarten to call it a harsh shave. Quite the contrary in fact. The razor may pull at the whiskers a bit (or more), but it won't cause skin irritation.

I have noticed that the width of the bevel sides makes a difference. Very narrow bevels take more keenness easily. On wider bevels, spending more time on the hone doesn't always yield the desired results. I don't know why. Maybe wide bevels create more suction on the hone's surface. Maybe as a result, the very edge starts fluttering a bit during the stroke, which could prevent it from getting as sharp as a narrow bevel. Just speculating.

Some methods to aim for more sharpness, in the order that I would try them:

1. Back to the Blue with real light slurry for 70 laps or so. Aim for light, even strokes and test shave that edge. (Strop 20 on linen and 60 on leather) Don't finish the shave. Just find out what the razor does. Do 70 more, strop again and test shave another patch. As soon as the sharpness stagnates, finish with 70 laps on the Coticule with water. Strop and test shave.

2. If you're still not pleased with the results after (1), try prolongued stropping on the linen. Some very experienced members have reported that it actually has some abrasive power.

3. Chromium Oxide on a paddle strop. 20 laps or so. This certainly adds keenness, not just smoothness. Whether you'll pay a longevity price, is a personal question. I don't think 20 laps does much harm.

4. If the keenness still lacks after (3), add two layers of tape to the spine, and perform 30-50 laps on the Coticule with water. Next 2O on the CrO. If this doesn't solve it, you never had a good bevel to start with, or you have serious issues with your stroke, or not likely, flaws in your hones. (assuming they're lapped ;))

Good Luck,
Bart.

OK, I've decided to go through a process of elimination on the advice I've received, going from "lowest impact" to "highest impact." So today, I stropped on newspaper--got a marginal improvement. SO I tried lots of linen, and again, marginal improvements. But not nearly enough to give what I want in a shave. So, back to the stones!

Thanks again for your advice, guys.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bart

In my experience, the Blue/slurry - Coticule/water progression has a narrow landing zone. You really need to get the last bit of sharpness off the Blue, or it the results will lack a bit in the sharpness department. I have to disagree with Maarten to call it a harsh shave. Quite the contrary in fact. The razor may pull at the whiskers a bit (or more), but it won't cause skin irritation.
.

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I agree that harsh was not the right description.. it pulled at the whiskers quite a bit.. and did shave them without causing skin irritation..it was very uncomfortable though..

It was probably because my stroke wasnt light enough or some other newbee honing error or maybe not stropping enough after honing (now that I think of it this is the most likely error)

Maarten

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JimR

OK, I've decided to go through a process of elimination on the advice I've received, going from "lowest impact" to "highest impact." So today, I stropped on newspaper--got a marginal improvement. SO I tried lots of linen, and again, marginal improvements. But not nearly enough to give what I want in a shave. So, back to the stones!

Thanks again for your advice, guys.

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Yups... work that BBW slurry and enjoy the smell..

I would just listen to Barts advice... he really knows what he is doing..

What I* did last time when I felt the razor wasn't sharp enough was pretty similar.
1 I did 50 laps on BBW with slurry
2 diluted the slurry with a couple of drops of water and did 10 more laps
3 repeated step 2 until the slurry was as clear as water (I think about 5 times)
4 did 50 laps on the coticule with water
5 stropped 100 laps on newspaper
6 10 laps on Cr0
7 40 laps on linnen
8 70 laps on leather
9 had the best shave with the razor I ever had.


The good thing about Barts approach is that you really feel what the BBW is doing with the edge. And the difference before and after the coticule..

Maarten

* of course I'm just a newbe at honing and shaving and got lucky enought to have some success at it. But wnated to share my experience anyway.

OK, so I went back to the BBW with slurry...I gave it about 100 laps, then tried a small test shave--much better. I polished on the cot w/ water, and the full shave was much, MUCH better than yesterday. BUT...

But. It sitll isn't as sharp as I want. So I'll give it another round on the BBW and if it doesn't work then back to the cot w/ slurry for another try at the bevel...

But yeah, today's shave was perfectly acceptable, and I did it myself!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JimR

OK, so I went back to the BBW with slurry...I gave it about 100 laps, then tried a small test shave--much better. I polished on the cot w/ water, and the full shave was much, MUCH better than yesterday. BUT...

But. It sitll isn't as sharp as I want. So I'll give it another round on the BBW and if it doesn't work then back to the cot w/ slurry for another try at the bevel...

But yeah, today's shave was perfectly acceptable, and I did it myself!

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If there was a clear and present improvement from your second round on the Blue, there's no need going back to the Coticule with slurry. It will just reset the keenness to the "slurry-phase" level of the Coticule, and there's no point in setting a bevel over and over again. The mere fact that the razor responded well from to the Blue, and that you are shaving with it, is plenty proof that the razor has a decent bevel.

If working on the Blue (try a very light slurry) and finishing on the yellow stops giving you improvement, then you really should try the prolonged stropping session on the linen once more. While your previous edge may not have been keen enough to benefit much from it, it may tell a completely different story at a keener level, kind of like jumping to a too high grit too soon.
If that still doesn't give you the performance you're after, I would try Maarten's approach. Perhaps change the order of 5. stropping on black newspaper print and 6. stropping on CrO. (I have no experience stropping on newsprint, but I operate a offset rotation printing press every Tuesday night, and have an idea what's in the ink).
If that doesn't help, you could still try my secondary bevel suggestion on the Coticule with water (option 4 in my previous post).

It sounds like you're doing very well. Aim for light strokes. That always seems to make a difference for me on the Belgian hones.

Best regards,
Bart.

I really want to thank you, Bart, for helping me get the best out of my hones. It's really encouraging and I'm really, REALLY happy I got the stone I did.

And man, this sure is fun! :D