Even hone?

Hi,
New to the group. Trying to avoid the ER in my quest for a closer shave...

I watched the honing video on the FAQ at the top of this forum (is that Lynn?). I noticed that he is using a 3" stone, and starts the hone with the fulll blade in contact with the stone. Then uses the X-stroke, which pretty quickly pulls the heel of the blade off the stone, whereas the point side of the blade is always in contact with the stone (and does this on each 1/2 stroke). Since point-part of the blade is always in contact with the stone, and the heel-part isn't, doesn't that result in an uneven hone? Should the X-stroke start with part of the point off the stone to equalize the contact time between the heel-side and point-side?

Thanks

Hi and welcome to SRP. Here is a link to a thread that goes into that question in detail with Lynn and others giving their view on it.

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Originally Posted by BHChieftain

Hi,
New to the group. Trying to avoid the ER in my quest for a closer shave...

I watched the honing video on the FAQ at the top of this forum (is that Lynn?). I noticed that he is using a 3" stone, and starts the hone with the fulll blade in contact with the stone. Then uses the X-stroke, which pretty quickly pulls the heel of the blade off the stone, whereas the point side of the blade is always in contact with the stone (and does this on each 1/2 stroke). Since point-part of the blade is always in contact with the stone, and the heel-part isn't, doesn't that result in an uneven hone? Should the X-stroke start with part of the point off the stone to equalize the contact time between the heel-side and point-side?

Thanks

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I no exactly what your saying. That is why i now prefer 6 x 2inch wide hone i have norton i have set bevels many times in x pattern and the heal is always last to get sharp theres no dout about that and sontimes the toe .What i do is i always hone with a slight rolling x pattern starting with the heal down first which gets the heal on the hone for sure always works for me. you will find the very begining of the heal does'nt get on the hone at all use marker and you will see.

I think the same, but I have one theory why it may not lead to excessive wear at the point-part of the blade.

Suppose you have been using X-stroke honing for a short while, and the point is worn slightly more than the heel. When you place the whole blade on the hone, the extra wear at the point means the blade edge will not make contact there! The whole spine will be in contact, and the heel of the blade edge will be in contact. But the point will have a slight gap, or at least the pressure at that part will be lower.

So honing of the point will mostly happen only at the end of the X-stroke.

In other words the X-stroke will cause the point end of the blade to become narrow, but the problem is self-limiting.

This assumes you are using good technique and keeping as much of the spine in contact with the hone as possible at all times.

With bad technique, the X-stroke could lead to very uneven wear, it's easy to find examples of this on ebay.

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Hi and welcome to SRP. Here is a link to a thread that goes into that question in detail with Lynn and others giving their view on it.

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The funny thing was, that same member, while declining the usefulness of the X-stroke, had a number of threads going on at the same time, about his problems to make good contact with the hones. Here's one example:
http://straightrazorpalace.com/basic...al-strips.html
Here's another: http://straightrazorpalace.com/basic...harpening.html

Honing with straight strokes will cause problems with many razors. It will even introduce unevenness instead of preventing it.
The X-stroke is the best guarantee against a blade becoming uneven in width, whether it's a frown or a tapering toe.
Should it happen nevertheless after many years of honing, it's not that problematic to deal with at the first signs of such occurrence.

Here's an in-depth explanation: Strokes for honing a razor - Straight Razor Place Wiki

Bart.

Thanks for the replies. I understand the benefit of the X stroke, I guess my next question would be how important is it to seek out a narrower stone (vs. a 3" stone) to get even blade treatment with the x-stroke, or is this just a non-issue?

BH

What about using a heel-leading stroke with the entire edge in contact (no X) on wide hones? Would that eventually lead to an uneven edge?

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Originally Posted by huntmol

What about using a heel-leading stroke with the entire edge in contact (no X) on wide hones? Would that eventually lead to an uneven edge?

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As I see it, the idea behind the X-stroke is to continuously shift the point of contact that a razor makes with the hone. If there is a little warp in the razor, or if the surface of the hone is slightly out of true, the X-stroke will prevent that your razor wears away more rapidly at the "high spots", whether they be present at the hone's surface or in the razor's grind/geometry. (You can deal with the hone's surface, but you can't deal with warp and spine unevenness). If you don't use a method that shifts the point of contact, you'll run into trouble on some razors (not only on one rare specimen that you might never encounter).

Bart.

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Originally Posted by huntmol

What about using a heel-leading stroke with the entire edge in contact (no X) on wide hones? Would that eventually lead to an uneven edge?

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Lynn Abrams says."I typically use a 45 degree angle when honing wedges, smiling blades or older razors that have really uneven spine wear. Other than that I find that the 90 degree angle X pattern has produced the most consistent results for me" So for problem blades the heel leading x pattern is very effective. I hadn't considered an x pattern on an uneven hone since I lap all of mine to flat but what Bart says is true, even in that case the heel leading x pattern should be effective.

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Originally Posted by Bart

The funny thing was, that same member, while declining the usefulness of the X-stroke, had a number of threads going on at the same time, about his problems to make good contact with the hones. Here's one example:
http://straightrazorpalace.com/basic...al-strips.html
Here's another: http://straightrazorpalace.com/basic...harpening.html

Honing with straight strokes will cause problems with many razors. It will even introduce unevenness instead of preventing it.
The X-stroke is the best guarantee against a blade becoming uneven in width, whether it's a frown or a tapering toe.
Should it happen nevertheless after many years of honing, it's not that problematic to deal with at the first signs of such occurrence.

Here's an in-depth explanation: Strokes for honing a razor - Straight Razor Place Wiki

Bart.

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You nailed it. It was funny and frustrating. He and I had a lot of PMs back and forth beyond the threads over this issue. He just would not accept the concept of the x-stroke and insisted that it was not correct. In the end, he sold all of his straight razor equipment confident that he was right and we were wrong and he never got his razors sharp.

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Lynn Abrams says."I typically use a 45 degree angle when honing wedges, smiling blades or older razors that have really uneven spine wear. Other than that I find that the 90 degree angle X pattern has produced the most consistent results for me" So for problem blades the heel leading x pattern is very effective. I hadn't considered an x pattern on an uneven hone since I lap all of mine to flat but what Bart says is true, even in that case the heel leading x pattern should be effective.

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Lynn still means a 45 degree angle in combination with the X-stroke. I believe Huntmol was asking about a straightforward stroke with a diagonally held razor.

That still is a felony.:D
Lt. Bart of the stroke-police.:roflmao

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Originally Posted by Bart

Lynn still means a 45 degree angle in combination with the X-stroke.

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Of course, I thought that was obvious. :shrug: :)

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Originally Posted by Utopian

You nailed it. It was funny and frustrating. He and I had a lot of PMs back and forth beyond the threads over this issue. He just would not accept the concept of the x-stroke and insisted that it was not correct. In the end, he sold all of his straight razor equipment confident that he was right and we were wrong and he never got his razors sharp.

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Yes, if it wasn't so funny, it would be sad. I didn't realize the tragedy went on behind the scenes as well.

It makes me think of another guy that insisted on shaving in the shower with an unstropped razor and a CD for mirror.
After a few weeks of refusing all suggestions to come out the shower, he quietly left the scene. I believe the last we saw of him was a razor for sale in the old B/S/T forum.:shrug:

Bart.

Thanks guys!
Makes me wonder why people buy wide stones, especially when it comes to coticules and you can get a 2" stone for less than half the price of a 3" one

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Originally Posted by huntmol

Thanks guys!
Makes me wonder why people buy wide stones, especially when it comes to coticules and you can get a 2" stone for less than half the price of a 3" one

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Exactly the reason why I have an 8"x2" coticule. :p