Has anybody tried to use a 15k or 8k Shapton Pro dry no water
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Has anybody tried to use a 15k or 8k Shapton Pro dry no water
I have the 12k pro and use it fairly regularly with water. I have yet to use it completely dry. When I use it with water, it will lose the water on top of the hone as I am honing and it gets a little harder to move the razor across the stone because of the 'suction' it seems to create. The top seems to form a kind of really thick paste after a while if I don't keep water on it. It definitely seems like it adds to the pressure when honing when it gets like that. Maybe I will give it a try completely dry some time in the near future.
When I was a kid I tried honing a nice shiny new pocket knife dry. I've never forgotten the scratches it left compared to honing with water or oil and I guess it prejudiced me against dry honing. Besides that Shapton's FAQ recommends you do not hone dry and at the price of a 8 or a 15k I'll follow their recommendations. I've heard that dry honing on a coticule or a Spyderco is good and won't harn the stone.
Cliff, I've noticed that honing a razor on the Shapton pros will generate a slurry. I do my honing in front of the kitchen sink and keep a spray bottle handy so I am always refreshing the water and I don't let the "slurry" build up to the point where it creates stiction. I guess the stones are designed to behave that way and maybe cut faster but it messes with my smooth stroke so I dilute or rinse it off.
I was using my Pro 12k last night and had the same "suction" effect, with no slurry. Right from the first stroke. I didn't soak it, just sprayed it with water and I noticed the hone was really sucking that water up fast. Could this be it?
Just went to the kitchen sink, lapped my 12k and did 20 strokes on a Livi Takada. No stiction on mine within the 20 strokes. The fore mentioned slurry began within 5 strokes. I use a liberal amount of water and perhaps that is the difference ?Quote:
Originally Posted by JimR
Edit; Added a pic of the razor after some strokes on a 15 and 30k. As holli4pirating says,"If there isn't a picture, it didn't happen." :)
I find that rinsing it often is the way to go, too. I usually hold the hone in my hand, and while honing, the hone does not stay flat and the water runs off quickly. After a few strokes, I'm not sure how many, but probably less than 20, the water will disappear and I can see on the top of the hone where the razor has been as there is the swarf from the razor and the slurry generated. If I didn't keep the slurry to a minimum and rewet it with water, I would think that the hone would act as if it were uneven and force me to correct the stroke with different pressures if I wanted to maintain consistent contact with the stone. I also find that keeping water on the hone makes for a smoother stroke. I also try to keep the swarf to a minimum as it builds up along the same line on top of the hone. Usually I have to run my finger across it to get the swarf to come off. I do think it is advisable to keep the stone as flat as possible because it will help keep the water on it.Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyHAD
Do you find that most of the softer stones act in the same manner? Do the 8k, 12k, and 15k shaptons behave differently compared to each other?
But all this is done with water being involved. I wonder how much slurry would be generated if no water was to touch the hone and if it would pose the same problems as the slurry does when water is present. I wonder if dry honing would affect the speed/rate of material removal. Maybe a fine dust will form and the razor will push it off the stone, instead of just floating there in the water that remains, or sticking to the top? The action of the slurry is what I think will be the main difference. But, then agian, I don't know.
I do seem to remember trying to lap it dry at one point and got some very different results vs lapping it with water. The slurry gummed up the dmt I was using and the dmt was only cutting in certain areas while others just slid across the slurry. So, getting it flat for dry honing might be difficult, but it is probably possible. My razor is getting to the point that it needs a touch up and maybe I will figure something out.
On the DVD that Shapton USA distributor and Japanese chisel honemiester Harrelson Stanely made with Howard he specifically says to always use water in honing with the Shapton pro stones. I would never hone dry with them. OTOH, I would never hone dry with any stone but a barber hone or a Spyderco.
As for the slurry, IME the other grits will generate a cetain amount of slurry but nothing like the 12k. It seems to be softer. On the Shapton USA website it says in the FAQ that the 12k pro is designed for stainless steel.
Q: What's the difference between the Professional and M15 series? They look pretty much the same except one comes with a plastic case.
A: The professional series stones have 30% more particles by volume than the M series. They are mixed differently and they act quite differently. The 5000 and 8000 in the pro series do not "load up". This has been a problem with some steels in the M series. The 12000 is designed for stainless and will load with the soft iron in a Japanese chisel.
[B][/B
]I have the 1,2,5,8,12, 15 & 30 in the pro series and they are all very good. I recently picked up a 16k glass stone and it is also really good. Maybe better for razors then the 15k pro but it is hard to say. I have the impression it is better but the power of suggestion is strong. :thinking:
I don't have any Shaptons (yet) but I'm surprised that what ZethLent said in this post ...
http://straightrazorpalace.com/basic...tml#post322017
wasn't talked about more. I thought it was interesting that the manufacturer rates the 16K as one of the worst. A new 10K also seems very interesting although I've never seen it for sale anywhere.
Khat
Well, I tried it this afternoon before I headed off to work and the results were not nearly as good as I had hoped for. A few strokes on the dry lapped/dry surface of the 12k pro made me feel sorry for my razor. The stroke would start off slow/kind of sticky, then it would stick sharply and almost bounce along the top. I found it hard to keep the razor in contact with the stone. It also felt like it took more pressure to get it to move than it does when water is involved. Somewhere between 5-10 laps I gave up on it.
One thing I did notice while lapping it dry is that the ends of the hone seemed to be out of flat. They were higher than the rest of the hone's surface. I have not found this to be the case whenever I lap it with water.
I added water to the equation and everything seemed to go well from that point on.
So, I can't say that I would ever recommend using a shapton 12k pro without water. But I do wonder what part of the hone makes it that way. Is it the binder? The amount of abrasive? Why does the razor want to stick as much as it does? Does it stick because of friction?
Tonight i tried it dry then wet on 8k pro and 15k pro
To me it seems to get faster results when dry, but will leave bigger scratch marks
So, i'll keep with using water
I wonder if that had anything to do with the binder. Maybe when the binder gets wet it dissolves a little and the particles get smaller/the stone gets softer? Did you run into any problems with the blade being harder to move across the surface or trying to bounce or stick?Quote:
Originally Posted by badboris
Yes it is harder to move the bladeQuote:
Originally Posted by crazycliff200843
my next step tomorrow will be clear water vs slurry
If as you think the binder dissolve and the particles get smaller
then we should have a finer edge with a slurry