slurry honing

I no most guys use the yellow coticule for finishing with plain water.And slurry to cut a little faster when needed. paople say slurry can dull an edge and some say not. Does any one use just yellow with slurry strop and get a great shave ? i have found dense slurry on one razor to defanatly take the razor from shaving to not shaving. plain water did rescue it quite a bit, i have found extremly light slurry to not have that efect but after my bbw with slurry if i use yellow slurry i always think could egde of been better if i had just gone straight to plain water like i normaly would . i no bart does'nt recomend yellow with slurry unless setting a bevel.Question is does any one just use yellow full stop for maintanance with slurry or water etc.

I'm probably not the first one you wish to hear on this topic, but...
Yes I have.

Whenever I hone a razor, I nearly always do this:

1. Hone on slurry till bevel panes are straight and keenness has maxed out.
2. Dilute slurry with a few drops of water per 10 strokes, till it is completely washed down over about 100 laps.
3. 50-100 laps on Coticule with water.

Usually I stay on the same Coticule for all three steps, sometimes I swap between different specimens.
If the razor shows any response to the HHT after this, I'll strop it, probe again with the HHT (usually find improvement) and I'll test shave.

If the razor does not show any HHT responsiveness, I 'll continue with whatever progression I had in mind for that razor. Sometimes test shave shows only a very minor lack of keenness, in which case I perform about 10 laps on a loom strop with Cr0.
Some of my best shavers have not received any other treatment, not even the CrO.

The success rate is limited, it seems dependent on the Coticule, the razor and last but not least, how consistently I manage to do perfect and light strokes. When I go to the quarry in a few weeks, I silently hope to find some promising stones in support of this honing approach.

Bart.

thanxs bart i have tryed with light slurry on yellow and always finish 100 on plain water i always keep it light as possible. i strop and if passes hht then if not i'd probably go bbw then yellow water and test.It just put me off using slurry as first time i did it realy blunted my razor that was when i very first got my yellow and i now realize that the slurry was a little to thick which is easy to do with out realizing. now i just create slurry and dilute with water rub it around untill milky like real skimmed milk and it seems to be ok .

Yes, I certainly agree with you that the density of the slurry is correlated to the maximum keenness you can get off the hone.
I have also noticed that the honing speed diminishes, as the slurry becomes thiner. Because of that, I usually dilute it gradually, in the hope that I hit the desired keenness before my slurry becomes so thin that it turns the Coticule into a mere polisher.
I believe you know your particular Coticule well enough to know what the ideal density is for your hone and purpose. I find that an awesome achievement.

Great stuff,
Bart.

So from what you guys are saying, even for a touch up, you probably need to use slurry on your coticule to bring the edge back (A very light one)? I have a BBW and a yellow coticule so I am wondering what a typical touch up progression would be.

The options are:
Yellow with slurry dilute until clear with water and keep going about 100laps.
Yellow with slurry, then BBW slurry, then back to yellow with water.
and the final which is just water on yellow.

I also have a hanging strop with Cr0.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Disburden

So from what you guys are saying, even for a touch up, you probably need to use slurry on your coticule to bring the edge back (A very light one)? I have a BBW and a yellow coticule so I am wondering what a typical touch up progression would be.

The options are:
Yellow with slurry dilute until clear with water and keep going about 100laps.
Yellow with slurry, then BBW slurry, then back to yellow with water.
and the final which is just water on yellow.

I also have a hanging strop with Cr0.

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It's impossible to tell what the edge will need for a touch up. It depends on how far you allowed the edge to fall back. I also depends on the width of the bevel (smaller bevels respond quicker to less powerful honing methods). It depends on the amount of convexity that may be present, caused by performing touch-ups with a pasted strop, that are very effectively at first but become increasingly less effective as the edge becomes more and more rounded. Finally, for me personally, my abrasive beard always introduces a number of very small chips missing from the very edge, that build up shave after shave. Hence the dulling of my razors is in reality more a true deterioration than a dulling.

The best approach for reviving a dulling edge is to start with the most conservative option, in this case: a number of laps on a Coticule with water. If that doesn't cut it, you can try increasingly more aggressive options. Try postponing decent slurry on a Coticule as a last resort. Of course, if you spot "chippy" deterioration at the edge under magnification, you'll know you don't stand a change remedying that on a Coticule with water only... Estimating what to do, comes with experience. I beileve it often depends on the particular situation.

Bart.

Thanks for the response, Bart. I respect your opinions a lot as they're followed by light years of experience with a Coticule and a straight razor. What would you recommend as a half way point between a coticule with water and a coticule with slurry? I own a BBW as well (separate stone) so I am wondering if that fits into the mix somewhere, I know it is a slower cutter than a Coticule with slurry as I've seen you mention this before.

I love the results I get from my coticule with water and CrO strop but I know the paste will round the edge in time and I dread the day of that happening and not knowing what to do about it next.My beard is also very corse, maybe like yours. Can a BBW be used with just water? I never see this being mentioned like I do with a Coticule and water.

May I ask why you don't go up the progression to finer stones? Am I missing something? Is it a bad thing to go to like a 16K stone then pastes like 0.5, 0.25, then Chromium? I love using the Coticule with slurry because of the feedback and because of the way it hones by the time I hit the 16K the hard work is done.


Thanks,
Richard

the point of having a coticule is to be able to do the whole process on one hone set bevel with slurry and cut then polish with water job done that how barbers did it .

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Disburden

What would you recommend as a half way point between a coticule with water and a coticule with slurry? I own a BBW as well (separate stone) so I am wondering if that fits into the mix somewhere, I know it is a slower cutter than a Coticule with slurry as I've seen you mention this before.

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Sorry for my delayed answer, Nick. It slipped my mind that I still needed to address your question.

You could look at "touching up" as a sort of honing in reverse. First you try the finisher, in our case, a Coticule with water. If that doesn't revive the edge, you can try again, reaching one step further back in your honing progression. That could very well be a Belgian Blue with a light slurry. I consider DMT-E / BBW-slurry / Coticule-water a very reliable honing progression. Another recipe I have very consistent results with is: Coticule-slurry / Chosera10K / Coticule-water. And finally, my favorite, not very consistent, but awesome results: Coticule-slurry / Coticule dilluting phase / Coticule-water.
I don't have a large personal collection, about a dozen. I know them well enough to tell what honing approach they prefer each individually. I often check my razors at the stereo microscope. If you could see me sitting here, you'd understand. My computer in the middle, on the left my scope, on the right about 5 boxes with each 4 razors (my 4 test Double Arrows, my dozen babies and a box with current honing jobs). In both drawers of my desk are the hones sound asleep. It takes me 10 seconds to take a razor and check it with maginification. It's not to difficult to estimate what to do, based upon such inspection, knowing that the razor has a good bevel to start with.

Kind regards,
Bart.

I've tyed the coticule slurry diluting method to night and the shave was good this time and the razor felt the smoothest yet very good and smooth smoother than bbw with slurry then plain water on my coticule i liked the feel there was a big enough differance for me to notice straight away.

do you have a BBW slurry stone or use your yellow coticule slurry stone on your BBW? I don't have a BBW slurry stone and it always annoys me.

Thanks for your answers Bart, they were more than I expected once again. It sounds like you have a wonderful set up at your hands there, with your hones and razors plus microscope. I am thinking about getting a microscope sometime also. Seems like a wonderful tool. I actually walked into your response tonight as a mistake, I forgot I asked you a question, so it's no big deal about the delayed answer! :)

I will try the coticule for touching up and see how it works. I just got a 7/8 wedge in the mail and that may be a different story. All my other razors are hollow - extra hollow grounds. I really just want an excuse to use my BBW in the progression since I bought it and haven't found where to use it yet. I thought maybe I would start on that hone and then work up to the coticule, but if the yellow works on it's own with water then so be it.

I have bbw slurry stone but you can use yellow

I'm the same i have bbw and yellow and i like to use both as ihave them i always start with bbw slurry then yellow for touch ups or improve mants i even try the yellow with slurry as well as like to hone with slurry just differant methods and see how it feels on your face

I received a wedge in the mail the other day and I was really excited to try it. So far the shaves are very sub par compared to my extra hollow blades. I am left with a ton of stubble, even after I did 10 laps on Cr0. I am going to try the BBW slurry and yellow at some point this weekend and see if it improves. I thought wedges were good for heavy beards? This is a 7/8 Joseph Rodgers and Sons razor. I did Four passes with it this morning and the shave was still stubbly after. I will post about honing on BBW and then yellow coticule after and let you guys know how it turns out next shave.

Wedges are great for thick beards, but they also are a bit more challenging to sharpen...

From what you describe, yours is still lacking in the keenness department.

Good luck,
Bart.

I honed the wedge on BBW with slurry and then diluted with spray water until it was total water. Took about 80 passes total. Then I went to the yellow coticule with just water and did 50 passes. Went to cut some hair on my leg and my sock had leg hair all over it. Seems to be good, I then did an extra 20 passes just to make sure and the blade cut my leg hairs but didn't pass the HHT.

If I go right off the yellow is the blade too smooth to even pass a hht? This is what it seems when I use the coticule on my other razors, so I then do about 5 passes on Cr0 to add toothiness to grab on the hht.

I will test shave tomorrow morning and post again. I didn't get a good shave this morning off the wedge but I did clean up with my 1926 gillette NEW bostonian, so I can't shave since I am still bbs! :rock:

I never get get to pass the hht after polishing on coti after linen and then leather you should be able to pass the hht having said that i passed after bbw yellow slurry for some reason only just once stropped passed hht easy

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gary haywood

I never get get to pass the hht after polishing on coti after linen and then leather you should be able to pass the hht having said that i passed after bbw yellow slurry for some reason only just once stropped passed hht easy

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I think it's because the coticule polishes the edges so well that they can no longer grip the hairs that you're holding between your fingers. The edge is still sharp enough to shave though.

I think the HHT is irrelevant when honing on the coticule unlike the other hones and pasted strops.

plus one on that i have had the odd razor not pass but shave good for me some razors pop hairs no problem even fine leg hair and they have shaved but felt harsh slightly. i prefer smoother feeling shave nower days.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Disburden

If I go right off the yellow is the blade too smooth to even pass a hht? This is what it seems when I use the coticule on my other razors, so I then do about 5 passes on Cr0 to add toothiness to grab on the hht.

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I don't think so.
CrO does not add any "toothiness" to the edge, quite the contrary. Because there's always some cushion effect in the leather, even on a paddle strop, CrO introduces convexity, however slight it may be. The abrassion is located mainly at the very tip of the bevel, which can make a blade keener with only very few laps. At the same time, CrO is finer than any hone. Sharpness of an edge is always limited by a narrow strip of steel at the very tip of the bevel not being defined. The finer the hone, or the stropping compound, the narrower this strip can be defined. At the extremes we're working on, also principles, other than merely abrasion, become important in the shaping of the edge. Plastic flow, an important factor when working with polishing (or buffing) compounds such as CrO, is more effective for shaping a keen edge when it is performed in an outbound (stropping) direction.
To reiterate:
A. CrO is effective because it can define the tip of the bevel within narower boundaries than a hone ever could.
B. CrO is effective because it can rely it works in the stropping direction.
(note: if you rely to heavily on this latest principle, you'll pay a price in edge durability)

For my use of the HHT, and the results I expect coming off the hones, you could read my wiki article on the subject.

Hanging Hair Test, from trick to probing method - Straight Razor Place Wiki

Bart.

Interesting, Bart, thanks. I am learning a lot about honing with the coticule and I find is fascinating. It seems I have a long way to go. I was able to pass the HHT after honing yesterday, I did a few more passes on the stone and then it passed fine. I Then stropped about 30/60 and it cut one of my hanging hairs about 5 times until it was very short and couldn't be cut anymore. My pasted strop is from Ken at Ruprazor and you should check it out, it is the Filly strop for beginners and is cowhide and light in color. I then use a TM 2" strop for everyday stropping. I don't know if Cr0 on that strop makes a difference from it being on another kind of strop. What you said makes perfect sense about the edge of the blade being thinner after pastes and that is why is cuts hanging hairs well afterwoods.

This morning I shaved with the 7/8 wedge again and the results were a lot better then the past few days. You can see my previous posts on what I did on BBW and yellow coticule. The shave was a lot smoother, but honestly I want more from the edge and I may take it back to the stones after work tonight. I still had to do four passes on my heavy beard to chop the stubble down to where I can rub my hands on my face and not get burn on my hands. The shave though is still twice as good as the previous ones. Maybe next honing attempt I will try 100 with slurry on BBW since it is a wedge instead of 50 with slurry. I still feel the wedge should mow down hair easier than my hollows and right now it just isn't.

Before I rehone on BBW though I will do about 5 passes on chromium oxide and test.

I did about 15 laps on CrO This morning and then stropped up for the shave with the Joseph Rodgers wedge. Shave was good, three passes, and smooth. Next time I need a touch up I may do more on the BBW with slurry first, but right now the CrO definitely helped get the shave closer to where I wanted it to be.