Shave sharp kitchen knives

I was at home yesterday with my kids who have been sick all week. And as they are being medicated and quite tired, I had a lot of free time on my hands while they were napping. I decided to take my kitchen knives to the hones, as I have been meaning to sharpen them for the last month or so. It all stared when I decided to lap my hones. I wanted to leave them perfect for my next razor so before hand I went at the kitchen knives.

Well, I stared with my paring knives and then moved on to the chefs knives. I ussually am a little reserved when sharpening them as my wife has warned me on several occasions that the 'her' knife is too sharp and it is scarry and not to do it again (we have his and hers chefs knives as I like mine very keen). But I threw caution to the wind and went at all of them on all of my hones. :D

I started at 400 and moved to 800 and that is ussually where I stop. Well I went from there to my Chosera 3000 and then to the 5000 and from there to my Maruichi natural. :rock: I tried to shave a few hairs off of my arm and poof they were gone. It wasn't as sharp as a razor is, as my angle somewhat varies while sharpening a knife. Nonetheless it was sharper than it has ever been. I went through this progression all of my kitchen knives ever my wife's :p.

I warned her when she got home from work of what I had done and she just said 'ok'. We will see if that sentiment contines. :gaah:

In the end all of the knives could shave, and all of the hones are as flat as they'll get. A successful honing story!

Now back to razors.

Great job! The last couple of days I've actually been watching a lot of youtube videos of knife sharpening. Needless to say that since I love my straight razors and hones, knife sharpening greatly interests me. Have you seen the video of Murray Carter shaving with a camping knife?
YouTube - Shaving with a camping knife!

That's something I wish to try someday, but until then I need to learn/practice a lot of knife sharpening. Until then there's always my razors to shave my face. :D

Interesting....what angle do you use when sharpening your knives.. been reading everything from 20-45 degrees.

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Originally Posted by Slartibartfast

Interesting....what angle do you use when sharpening your knives.. been reading everything from 20-45 degrees.

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I would say my angle is in that range, though probably in the lower angle area. No where near 45 though.

A western style chefs knife is anywhere from 20-25 degrees, 22 being around average, and is what most electric sharpeners are set at.:eek:

Japanese knives are anywhere from 14-20, usually around 15-16.

I prefer the sharper Japanese edge, and when honing my kitchen knives(western style) I set the bevel at around 16.

The edge wears out faster, but I use a Diamond steel, that keeps them in tip top shape.


Not to worry, I have el cheapo knives.

My kitchen knives have benefited from my straight honing stuff, too. I've honed some, but Ive also been able to get the edges of quite a few up to factory sharpness or better with just a pasted paddle strop and diamond paste, using 1 and .5 micron. I thought about getting some 3 micron for them specifically. I only use the paste every couple weeks so there shouldn't be much wear on the blades, but I do strop them on the leather pretty frequently, I've started using that in place of a steel, I like it better.

I do my Global's 17 one side, 20 the other. The Wusthof's 20 on both. I don't want to go any more acute than that as they just wouldn't last long enough. I tend to stick with the lansky on them & they don't get a highly polished edge.

If your knives hold that edge, you have some fantastic knives. :)

I have a couple knives I can get sharp enough to uncomfortably cut facial hair, but after a couple uses they are dull as a telephone poll. The steel is just to weak to hold the edge, for health sake I hope it's rolling as opposed to just microscopically snapping off in the food. Either way, I now stop at around 1000 grit, as that's the best edge they'll hold for more than a couple days.

Then again, my knives are total junk. :P

I want to get me some of those W&B knives... just as soon as I win the lottery.

With kitchen knives you want an edge that can take abuse and will last quite a while. You can get them really sharp but as has been said they won't last and there is too much of a chance to damage the edge if you hit something hard like a board or a bone.

Anyone who wants to wade into the addictive waters of japanese cutlery i suggest wading over to the General Discussion - Foodie Forums
and In the Kitchen (Topic list) - Knifeforums.com - Intelligent Discussion for the Knife Enthusiast - Powered by FusionBB for informed discussions .... much like here, only with kitchen knives.

Its my opinion that the Japanese make the finest kitchen cutlery..... light years ahead from any German / Euro/ American maker baring a few custom makers. Better steel (by a lot) and better blade shapes and edge geometry. If you haven't used a nice thin hard steel Gyuto (western style chef knife) sharpened to a razor edge..... you are truly missing out.

As for the edge.... if your hitting bone with your razor sharp chefs knife... your using the wrong knife! I keep a smaller 8" gyoto with a 10º -12º bevel it has a very thin blade with a 2mm spine.... a 12 inch heaver gyoto ... with a 15º, boning with 20º ....Petty 15º.

A knife and bevel for every purpose. I would NEVER use my 8" thin blade on anything hard, ever... It glides threw food like its not there. Its so different even my girlfriend won't go back to her Henckels even though i have them razor sharp.

Dive in ... the waters warm.... Here is stuff from staggeringly expensive to bargens.. Products Japanese Knife,Japanese Kitchen Knife,Japanese Chef's Knives.Com

After years of shaving my arm I attempted my first strait shave with a carbon Sabatier parer just to see if it was doable. It worked but it was apparently not as sharp as Murray Carters. I figured a sharp razor would have to be an improvement. My wife is afraid of my cutlery and I prefer she doesn't use it anyway. She tends to put it away like my cast iron, wet. I have to hide it when not in use. I still haven't broken down and gotten any decent Japanese steel.http://imgs.inkfrog.com/pix/pickin/MVC-166F.JPG

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Originally Posted by beenpickin

After years of shaving my arm I attempted my first strait shave with a carbon Sabatier parer just to see if it was doable. It worked but it was apparently not as sharp as Murray Carters. I figured a sharp razor would have to be an improvement. My wife is afraid of my cutlery and I prefer she doesn't use it anyway. She tends to put it away like my cast iron, wet. I have to hide it when not in use. I still haven't broken down and gotten any decent Japanese steel.http://imgs.inkfrog.com/pix/pickin/MVC-166F.JPG

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Nothin' wrong with that kit my friend.

Here is my Murray Carter nakiri that I put a shaving edge on and tried out... talk about a big edge :p something like a 20/8 one here :p

The only major difference between getting kitchen knives scary sharp and honing straights, is burr formation. Kitchen knives want a slight burr when setting bevels, while straights don't want one.

My kitchen knife benchmark is the tomato: if it cuts one without squeezing its contents out of it the knife is sharp enough.

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Originally Posted by Kees

My kitchen knife benchmark is the tomato: if it cuts one without squeezing its contents out of it the knife is sharp enough.

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Agreed.
If you can slide a knife through the skin with no pressure, or a sawing motion, you have a knife that will do anything you want in the kitchen.

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Originally Posted by StraightRazorDave

Have you seen the video of Murray Carter shaving with a camping knife?

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That's pretty incredible really, I bet that took a lot of honing.

I guess wedge razors are just knives that are honed to a very keen edge, which, ultimately isn't really practical for anything else.

Cool though.

so what is the process you use when sharpening? 20 strokes each way on each stone? are you visually looked for a bur to form?

How do you keep your angle? Do you use a shim or what? I'm trying to hone my kitchen knoves on a diamond plate I got, but I just dull them...I've got a cheap little King shim, but...:(

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Originally Posted by JimR

How do you keep your angle? Do you use a shim or what? I'm trying to hone my kitchen knoves on a diamond plate I got, but I just dull them...I've got a cheap little King shim, but...:(

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I don't know, just practice I guess. :shrug:

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Originally Posted by JimR

How do you keep your angle? Do you use a shim or what? I'm trying to hone my kitchen knoves on a diamond plate I got, but I just dull them...I've got a cheap little King shim, but...:(

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There are many ways to keep a reasonably consistant angle. Many use a gizmo of some sort that clamps the blade in and has a rod with a stone attached. The rod being set at a given angle... and walla consistant edge.

I just free hand all my sharpening and with practice I can keep a reasonable angle now. But it is not an exact angle, always going to be a bit of wabble in there. I have used the same hold now for a few years and it works well for me. I practiced many different angles untill I settled on the one I use now.

When starting out on free hand, picke up a cheep knife about the same size as the primary knife you wish to work on. Practice keeping a good consistant hold and practice sharpening it. You don't need to worry to much about a proper edge yet, just get used to getting a consistant hold while you run the knife over the stone.

There are some great videos out there (and some scary bad ones) that show how to sharpen. "U" tube has many good and bad ones, just read the comments and you can see if they are good or not.

I also might add that sharpening a western steel knife vs a Japanese knife will require very different systems. The edges required are just to different to use the same technique on.

I've been curious about shaving sharp kitchen knives as well, but so far have not succeeded in honing my knives to that keenness. My not-so-expensive IKEA damascus knife takes quite an impressive edge and will (sometimes) pass a hanging hair test after stropping. These knives were pretty sharp out of the box, I managed to improve only a little.

Tomatoes are generally used to test sharpness, but I buy chilis at a more regular basis. Their skins are quite tough as well and my knives will slice through with considerable ease!

Neither tomatoes or chilis are really good to test an edge for "sharpness".
A razor sharp (I know you all know what razor sharp mean) knife can still have trouble with the tough skin of a tomato.
The Japanese say the knife is "running", it skips over the skin with no teeth to grip it.
A well sharpened knife fresh of a 4K stone will mostly outperform any +20K sharpened knife in the tomato test, teeth is good sometimes.
Try your knife om proteins like meat or fish instead or on fresh mushrooms.

Thanks, I will try that! So far, slicing meat has been a pleasure and I can get slices of ~1 mm without much effort. Also, my girlfriend almost cut off her finger quite effortlessly...

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Originally Posted by Laurens

Thanks, I will try that! So far, slicing meat has been a pleasure and I can get slices of ~1 mm without much effort. Also, my girlfriend almost cut off her finger quite effortlessly...

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Hope she heals fast and good!

Show her pinch grip and to keep her fingers bent like a crab when holding food, let the blade side ride on your knuckles.
When cutting round things like a potato, start by carefully cut of a piece so you get a stable base it can stand on, start cutting a few slices until you are cutting
straight down to the "base", turn it around and keep slicing... a good way to avoid any "overhang" that may make the blade go sideways and hit your fingers.

I sharpen all my knives on a 1 x 30 belt sander with a 600, 800, 1000 and then a leather strop in the sander.
It produces an amazingly sharp edge in a matter of 1-2 minutes.

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Originally Posted by Lemur

Neither tomatoes or chilis are really good to test an edge for "sharpness".
A razor sharp (I know you all know what razor sharp mean) knife can still have trouble with the tough skin of a tomato.
The Japanese say the knife is "running", it skips over the skin with no teeth to grip it.
A well sharpened knife fresh of a 4K stone will mostly outperform any +20K sharpened knife in the tomato test, teeth is good sometimes.
Try your knife om proteins like meat or fish instead or on fresh mushrooms.

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Check this out, a highly polished edge, Scott takes them to 10k Synthetic then some pastes, I think all the way to 0.1 micron CBN

Gyuto Mario - YouTube

highly polished edge
Here another one

Mizuno Tanrenjo Honyaki - YouTube

If you look at when the edge touch the skin it's not biting it straightaway, it skips over the surface first.
I know it doesn't look like much to care about but to me it's a big difference.
Especially when I hold something with a tough skin in my hand and are going to do some quick cuts for decorations.
A toothy edge will grip straightaway and I got full control how deeply I cut, with a polished edge less so.
Try to carefully pull e polished edge along the skin without cutting it, not hard with a polished edge but with teeth you can't.

I sharpen the knives for the local eatery, and they complain when I make them sharp. They are so used to a toothy knife, they tell me they are dull right after I sharpen them. So I stopped honing them any further than the 1k, and now they are happy. Of course, if they actually used knives made of steel instead of scrap metal, they might work better!

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Hope she heals fast and good!

Show her pinch grip and to keep her fingers bent like a crab when holding food, let the blade side ride on your knuckles.

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The funny thing is, she works at a cooking school and explains this technique to other people. She's just a tad clumsy! Fortunately, her finger healed well in around a week or so.

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Check this out, a highly polished edge, Scott takes them to 10k Synthetic then some pastes, I think all the way to 0.1 micron CBN

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I like how the knife sinks into the tomato, but agree with Lemur on the skipping. I would like to see that knife push-cutting a tomato instead. And I do want to learn how to cut as easily as the guy in the second movie!
Besides, those knives are very, very pretty.

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Originally Posted by Laurens

The funny thing is, she works at a cooking school and explains this technique to other people. She's just a tad clumsy! Fortunately, her finger healed well in around a week or so.



I like how the knife sinks into the tomato, but agree with Lemur on the skipping. I would like to see that knife push-cutting a tomato instead. And I do want to learn how to cut as easily as the guy in the second movie!
Besides, those knives are very, very pretty.

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why push cutting?
I am pretty sure all his demos are push cutting, but here is a video specially made to demo that:

Push Cut Tomato Slice 2 - YouTube

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Originally Posted by Lemur

If you look at when the edge touch the skin it's not biting it straightaway, it skips over the surface first.
I know it doesn't look like much to care about but to me it's a big difference.
Especially when I hold something with a tough skin in my hand and are going to do some quick cuts for decorations.
A toothy edge will grip straightaway and I got full control how deeply I cut, with a polished edge less so.
Try to carefully pull e polished edge along the skin without cutting it, not hard with a polished edge but with teeth you can't.

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I agree I never go more than Aoto on any knife, although with Jnats the toothiness is there even at higher grits.

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Originally Posted by mainaman

why push cutting?
I am pretty sure all his demos are push cutting, but here is a video specially made to demo that:

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Push cutting is harder than sawing, which is also obvious from the video you added. Also, it's what razors do.

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Originally Posted by mainaman

why push cutting?
I am pretty sure all his demos are push cutting, but here is a video specially made to demo that:

Push Cut Tomato Slice 2 - YouTube

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Hmm, seems like our terminology is a bit off, this is what I call push cutting; Basic Cutting Motions - YouTube

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Originally Posted by Lemur

Hmm, seems like our terminology is a bit off, this is what I call push cutting; Basic Cutting Motions - YouTube

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May be, in the last video I posted is a demonstration of push cut, by the nature of the set up.
Both Eamon and Scott are members of the KKF, Scot is extremely well respected there, for his knowledge and great videos on kitchen knife reviews and cutting demonstartions.

Well it say so in the title to the video but they are not the same.
I've always believed that push cut involves a forward motion, that's how I was taught anyway.
Draw cut being it's opposite.

I have separate stones for my knives. I rarely touch a knife to any of my razor hones.

My best edges lately have come from an Arkansas stone progression. I start on soft ark then go to a norton hard translucent stone.

If the blade needs more work I start with shapton 1k. If it needs more than that I use the dmt325.

After the Arkansas stones I can push cut arm hair or paper with ease. Haven't tried my face.

Michael

That's what I like about my BBW: both sides are servicable. And I accidentally dropped it, which damaged one corner slightly, so I can always distinguish the razor and kitchen knife sides. For the rough work I have a 300/800 nameless, hollowed hone, which leaves pretty deep scratches. I'm looking into Naniwa hones, but they're too expensive for me at this moment.