Smooth vs. sharp

Hey all,

Last night I shaved with a razor that was super sharp, it cut through the hair with no resistance what-so-ever with no pressure applied, but I found it to be a little harsh on my skin afterwards. It was finished on my yellow/green thuringian btw, no pastes. Tonight I thought I would try an experiment and gave it several laps on my coticule with just water. Well tonight's shave was awesome! Still a great cutter, but a smoooooth shave. When I applied the alum I was suprised that it didn't sting at all! Still got a close shave but it was gentle on my skin.

So it seems that my skin much prefers the edge off the coticule (at least with this razor). To be honest it didn't cut QUITE as well as when I finished off with a few laps on the thuringian, but it was still shaving great. I guess my skin is sensitive to an edge that's too sharp. There really does seem to be a balance between sharpness and smoothness, and it's definitely a personal preferrence.

Just thought I would share my experience with all of you!

I hear you. Although I have never been personally discomforted by super sharp edges, such blades do need frequent tending. I also find that if I back off just a bit before getting the razor to that place just before the burrs start to form, I have an edge that can stand up a little more.

X

I have had that experiance with my new bismark shave but felt harsh even after belgiums but my other 15 razors were perfectly smooth i used ch.5 and it it was was worse i just kept repeating process bbw coti. i got my self a ch 12k did 100 passes on that and realy smooth now still don't no if ch12k sorted it but for the 14 pounds realy good hone. i also reckon i reset bevel and over did it this is why it could of been sharp but weak and harsh may be natural hones worked away the burr eventualy

I've also noticed this too. Especially if I finish an edge on some newspaper for example. It usually gives me a super sharp edge but also leads to more irritation. We all have different technique, skin type and razors so no one solution works for everyone.

Yep, I have trouble finding that balance sometimes. I go back and forth until I hit it.

Jordan

I'm curious, Do you have A Vintage Escher with Labels, or a Timber Tools Eshcer. You also mentioned Thuringian. Do you have one of those as well? I'm trying to get feedback on the lot....

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Originally Posted by Dups

We all have different technique, skin type and razors so no one solution works for everyone.

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That is the bottom line. I would bet three guys could hone the same razor with the same hones and probably come up with three different edges. Then the other variables thrown in. With my skin type I get irritation going beyond two passes with minor touchups. Of course I shave daily. If I went to every other day maybe I could get by with three passes ?

I get smooth and sharp enough edges off of a bbw/yellow progression. I like to hit it on an Escher afterwards sometimes but I can get by fine with a coticule by itself. Beard type probably plays into it to. I have very fine hair on my head. Some on my arms chest and legs etc. but none on my back. My guess is I am lucky enough not to have extemly tough whiskers.

Some fellows that are extremely hairy have tougher hair. I know this from shaving people for tattoos. Not their face but the toughness of hair on the body varies too believe it or not.

I can shave off a coticule but I and my skin prefers something a bit finer like cr0. I'm still looking for a hone to push that edge even further pass the coticule. I got my eyes set on a shapton 16k...so tempting :P

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

I get smooth and sharp enough edges off of a bbw/yellow progression. I like to hit it on an Escher afterwards sometimes but I can get by fine with a coticule by itself. Beard type probably plays into it to. I have very fine hair on my head. Some on my arms chest and legs etc. but none on my back. My guess is I am lucky enough not to have extemly tough whiskers.

Some fellows that are extremely hairy have tougher hair. I know this from shaving people for tattoos. Not their face but the toughness of hair on the body varies too believe it or not.

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Same here. My whiskers are fairly tough (I have lotsa curly brown hair on my head ;) and I like the just-right sharpness off a bbw/yellow progression. I've tried the CrO and while it produces wicked sharp edges, I much prefer the old good coticule.

For me, smoothness and comfort of shave is the ultimate goal. Sharpness is a good and necessary milestone but not the ultimate prize.

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Originally Posted by Dups

I can shave off a coticule but I and my skin prefers something a bit finer like cr0. I'm still looking for a hone to push that edge even further pass the coticule. I got my eyes set on a shapton 16k...so tempting :P

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The 16k will definitely do it.

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Originally Posted by sparq

Same here. My whiskers are fairly tough (I have lotsa curly brown hair on my head ;) and I like the just-right sharpness off a bbw/yellow progression. I've tried the CrO and while it produces wicked sharp edges, I much prefer the old good coticule.

For me, smoothness and comfort of shave is the ultimate goal. Sharpness is a good and necessary milestone but not the ultimate prize.

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+1 for me too.

I'd like the Shapton 16k, but I hate lapping those damn stones :P. I wonder if a shapton like that would require lots of maintenance like a norton for example. Right now I have a DMT 1200 and a Belgian combination so I don't have to lap very often.

I'm a little confused.

A razor has to be sharp or it won't cut. My test for this is the against the grain cut. If the blade is not sharp, it will snag and stop.

A smooth razor slides comfortably over the skin.

Sharp is to do with the edge and smooth is to do with the bevels.

In my experience the Escher or Escher type hones (not Thuringiens) have a finer grit than the coticule and produce the sharper edge and smoother edge.

It's interesting we all have different experiences and for me it just tells me that no two natural hones are alike.

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Originally Posted by Dups

I'd like the Shapton 16k, but I hate lapping those damn stones :P. I wonder if a shapton like that would require lots of maintenance like a norton for example. Right now I have a DMT 1200 and a Belgian combination so I don't have to lap very often.

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It is recommended to lap the shaptons every time before you hone and even in the midst of a progression if you are doing a lot of honing say on more then one razor at a session. They are a polymer and will change just sitting in a cool dry storage area. The DMT 1200 will get ruined if you do a lot of lapping on it so you would need a 325 or coarser if you didn't want to run into trouble later.

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Originally Posted by English

Sharp is to do with the edge and smooth is to do with the bevels.

In my experience the Escher or Escher type hones (not Thuringiens) have a finer grit than the coticule and produce the sharper edge and smoother edge.

It's interesting we all have different experiences and for me it just tells me that no two natural hones are alike.

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+1 on the last sentence. I cannot however agree with the words above. In my books, smoothness == "the ability of the edge to differentiate between skin and whiskers while effortlessly cutting the latter" (Bart used these words IRC).

Smoothness has not much to do with bevels IMO and there is more than grit size to it (i.e. the smoothing qualities of "near-ball" shaped garnets in Belgians). It is the shape of the very edge that matters (serrations, scratches, burr,..).

I recently posted that I used a Dragon's Tongue to touch up some razors (that I normally finish with diamond pastes down to 0.25 micron on balsa.) The first test shave showed a less sharp edge, but I still got a great shave (with 4 passes.)

I've test shaved with another of those razors and got the same result. Definitely less sharp than I am used to, but very smooth, no cuts, nicks or irritation. And close with 3 passes.

I've since lapped the DT a bit more, maybe I can improve on those results.

At the moment I think I prefer a sharper edge. But it was a revelation that you can get the same results using a different approach.

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Originally Posted by zib

I'm curious, Do you have A Vintage Escher with Labels, or a Timber Tools Eshcer. You also mentioned Thuringian. Do you have one of those as well? I'm trying to get feedback on the lot....

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Both of my thuringians are vintage and "Celebrated Water Razor Hone" stones. One is a yellow/green with the label affixed to the back of the stone, and the other is in a little box with the label on the inside of the lid.

I've had great success with my thuringians, but I think it depends on the razor. This particular razor seemed to respond better to the coticule with my skin. I've had great success with other razors and my thuringian, but would I get a better performance off the coticule for my skin? So many variables! But it's fun trying. :D

What my skin prefers might be terrible for someone else, as long as it works for me I'm happy!

With a tough beard, I still prefer the smoother but less close shave tradeoff I get using BBW/Yellow, rather than BBS with tiny cuts and irritation. That is my usual result from just using a Thuringian or Shapton to finish honing. I do go against the grain and the coticule honed edge definitely feels smoother and less irritating to my skin. Your results probably will vary with how you hone and your beard type, of course.

There's the beard to be cut.
And the skin to be spared.
There's the hand of the man that guides the razor.

That's the riddle that holds the answer to the ideal edge.

Aiming for as sharp as possible off the hones, preferably sharper than you need it, and next experiment with different finishing hones, sure is an excellent way to find your favorite edge. In any case, it is much better than going to the finishing hones too early.

About Coticules, they create a relatively wide but gentle and very shallow pattern, imho, leaving a quite unique shaving edge. They absolutely reach their prime when you can impose them on an already very keen edge. But it never gets better than when I can walk away with exactly the same results off just one Coticule. It does not happen every time, but that makes it all the more fantastic when it does.

Bart.

Unless you look to see why the more sharp blade is harsh- rehoning doesn't carry much weight no matter what you put it on next:shrug:

I cant follow unless feel goes with see.

what I usually see ; teeny chips or a straight streak of light on the edge -makes it get real prickly as you shave.

high ambient light for crystal clear views in the radio shack scope. using mostly the built in light is how I find the "streak" on the edge.

??

Super sharp is what I like. One WTG + one XTG = BBS is my goal.

In my case, it only took a couple of shaves before my skin adapted to a very keen edge and after that, the keen edge felt smooth. Give it a chance, it might surprise you that you can have both.