Japanese Grit vs. American Grit

Ok, so a discussion in this thread has kind of brought home some different ides I've been thinking about for a while.

It appears that some of the Japanese synthetic stone makers have some stones that are not available in Japan that ARE available in the US, and vice versa.

For example--there is NO 15,000 Shapton Pro series (刃の黒幕 in Japanese) on the Japanese Shapton website. The closest thing is the 12,000....which, oddly enough, in the color coded series is the same color-cream. According to JimmyHAD, who has both, they are largely indistinguishable except that the 12,000 feels softer. Hmmmm...

Then we come to the Naniwas. The Super series in Japan does NOT have a 12,000--only a 10,000. (here's the same site in English, NOTICE STILL NO 12,000!). This time, however, the coloring is different...

So, here is my question.
If these stones are made in Japan, by Japanese companies, why oh WHY would they make a higher grit, and therefore more expensive and more effective for polishing, stone exclusively for a foreign market? Especially considering that they very likely are MADE AT THE SAME PLANT?

Here are the some possible explanations I have come up with.
1. They feel that since the American market is bigger, it might be more willing to pay a bit more for the slightly higher grit (unlikely--Japanese tool users are VERY willing to pay high prices for quality...).
2. The Shapton stones are, in fact, identical but there is a difference in grit rating in the US making a Japanese 10,000 equal to an American 12,000; 12,000 to 15,000 etc. (JImmyHAD, who is experienced in these things like I never will be, says they are different.) This would also be unlikely, since the other stones have the same numbers...
3. The Shapton stones are identical, and they're just saying it for some weird reason that we Westerners could never understand. Probably something to do with Ninjas.

I go with number 3. Though none of this explains the Naniwa stones....because they still have a 10,000 in the States, right?

Soooo...what have I missed?

What about the Chosera #10000 that comes both in Pink and in Blue? :shrug:

http://f09batchimg.auctions.yahoo.co...8091900116.jpg


http://hamono.ocnk.net/data/hamono/p...a7d0f272c1.jpg

If I am not mistaken Shapton has a gray series of glass stones that is not yet available in the USA that is intended for Japanese chisels. They use a type of steel with their chisels that is not used on USA or European tools. I forget whether it is white or blue steel but something like that.

The Shapton USA website, while it doesn't carry the 12k, does say in their FAQ that the 12k is meant for stainless. It is worth noting that none of these stones are made for razors. They are all made primarily for woodworkers.

I have spoken the the USA distributor, Harrelson Stanley, more then once and he has told me that the pro and glass lines are different formulas . I imagine the Naniwas are too. These folks are as serious about their hones as we are. :)

In the photo of the 12 and the 15 I couldn't easily tell them apart so I wrote on the 12 with marker to more easily distinguish it from the 15. Note the factory #s only differ in the letter prefix and they both come in the same color case. :shrug:

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Originally Posted by JimR

2. Japanese 10,000 equal to an American 12,000; 12,000 to 15,000 etc. (JImmyHAD, who is experienced in these things like I never will be, says they are different.) This would also be unlikely, since the other stones have the same numbers...

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Sorry to say this is confuses me?
it should be opposite then what is above.
example american 8k equals japan 10k etc? or i am totally wrong?

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Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl

Sorry to say this is confuses me?
it should be opposite then what is above.
example american 8k equals japan 10k etc? or i am totally wrong?

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Well, since the Japanese Shapton only has a 12,000, the cream, which is very VERY similar to the American 15,000 cream (and, incidentelly, many people say the Kitayama is a 10k-12k stone, but the Japanese sites all list it as an 8k...) I was just speculating about the possibility.

I'm not sure what you mean by your post. Why do you say that "American 8k equals Japan 10k"?

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Originally Posted by OLD_SCHOOL

Perhaps it has something to do with measurements. Like USA still uses imperial measurements and Japan uses metric, and temperatures, Japan uses Celsius and USA uses Fahrenheit. So perhaps whatever Japan uses for measuring their grit size, is different from what USA uses.

Just an idea.

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I was thinking about that, too...but then the stones that have the same numbers, i.e. the pro 30,000 is the same in the US and Japan, would they be a different stone in Japan and the USA (same number, different actual grit size)?

It's a mystery...I dropped an email to Naniwa asking why the 12,000 wasn't available in Japan, maybe there' ll be some kind of roundabout explanation. I'll contact Shapton later today...I suppose I should actully do some work at some point.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OLD_SCHOOL

Perhaps it has something to do with measurements. Like USA still uses imperial measurements and Japan uses metric, and temperatures, Japan uses Celsius and USA uses Fahrenheit. So perhaps whatever Japan uses for measuring their grit size, is different from what USA uses.

Just an idea.

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Exactly you are right

This is great :D We don't know what grit the natural stones are and now we don't know what grit the Shaptons and Naniwas are :gaah: :rofl2:

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Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl

Exactly you are right

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So how do we explain all the other stones that have the same grit in Japan and the US?

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Originally Posted by OLD_SCHOOL

Unlike naturals though, you have an idea that the Shaptons and Naniwas will definitely be close to the grit stated.

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Yes that is true and they work well whatever they are. A rose by any other name is still a rose and all of that. :tu

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Originally Posted by OLD_SCHOOL

Well this is a complete left field guess, but again with my temperature analogy. There is a point I think in the negatives, where Fahrenheit and Celsius are the same. I will also point out that this is from high school memory, which is not exactly fresh anymore so I could be mistaken. ;)

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Yeah, but every other stone is the same...#120-white, #220-Moss, #320-Blue/Black, #1000 Orange and so on, up to #30,000-purple....All of them are exactly the same in Japan/US listings, except for the cream.

That would mean that there is only one point where the two scales DON'T coincide. Certainly not impossible, but very odd...

The more I think about this, the more confused I get.:thinking:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JimR

It's a mystery...I dropped an email to Naniwa asking why the 12,000 wasn't available in Japan, maybe there' ll be some kind of roundabout explanation. I'll contact Shapton later today...I suppose I should actully do some work at some point.

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Good luck with that. I have emailed them several times in both English and Japanese and they have never answered. If you get an reply from one of their reps ask about the colour difference with the pink and blue #10000 Chosera.

Also, the grit confusion could have attributed to listing the micron size on the glass stones to lessen the confusion of mesh grit debates. With the micron sizing everyone is happy....:ziplip:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OLD_SCHOOL

Perhaps it has something to do with measurements. Like USA still uses imperial measurements and Japan uses metric, and temperatures, Japan uses Celsius and USA uses Fahrenheit. So perhaps whatever Japan uses for measuring their grit size, is different from what USA uses.

Just an idea.

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The problem is that you cannot measure the finer grits at all, since a mesh sieve is only so big.
The industry more or less gives a clue (whenever they have a clue).
Their grit size might be an estimation for the US market, depending on the other products available there.
It has nothing to do with ANSI (much smaller numbers), the US measuring system - well and nothing with FEPA either (ours). Those three systems (as well as the old GDR, the one in poland and the russian) are not compatible in any way. Like You can't guess from a FEPA 800, which is roughly a ANSI 1200 or a JIS 3000, a GDR F7 a UDSSR M7 a PM F800 that a FEPA 1200 is this or that, cause the factor for multiplication is different for each index and it is progressive.
FEPA 1200 is about the finest you can determine with a mesh sieve.
So thats where the tables end that my brother dug out of his folder from when he studied that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JimR

Here are the some possible explanations I have come up with.
1. They feel that since the American market is bigger, it might be more willing to pay a bit more for the slightly higher grit (unlikely--Japanese tool users are VERY willing to pay high prices for quality...).
2. The Shapton stones are, in fact, identical but there is a difference in grit rating in the US making a Japanese 10,000 equal to an American 12,000; 12,000 to 15,000 etc. (JImmyHAD, who is experienced in these things like I never will be, says they are different.) This would also be unlikely, since the other stones have the same numbers...
3. The Shapton stones are identical, and they're just saying it for some weird reason that we Westerners could never understand. Probably something to do with Ninjas.

I go with number 3. Though none of this explains the Naniwa stones....because they still have a 10,000 in the States, right?

Soooo...what have I missed?

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I agree with number three. I don't have any reason, I'll just pick any answer with ninjas in it. All they do is flip out and kill people! They're totally sweet.

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Originally Posted by Pete_S

I agree with number three. I don't have any reason, I'll just pick any answer with ninjas in it. All they do is flip out and kill people! They're totally sweet.

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People in Binghmpton, NY don't think that behavior is so sweet. :td

The Pink Chosera is for girls and the blue Chosera is for boys.

So we have resolved one of the issues.

The best site I have found for Hones and Naniwa hones is the following:

Japanese Waterstones: Naniwa

You have to page down to see the hones.

But clearly there is a 12000 grit.

I've just ordered the 800/5000 to complement my Chosera. I'll let you know how it goes but the 800/5000 and the 3000/8000 combo stones represent great value. The price will I think probably rise soon.

Interestingly on the Naniwa Duetschland web site, they don't list the 12000 hone or the combination hones.

Also to add to the confusion, they advertise a Superstone range and a more expensive Superstone + range.

So it gets more confusing.

English they do!
http://www.feinewerkzeuge.de/superstone3000-8000a.jpg
Super-Kombischleifstein Naniwa
Körnung: 3000/8000
http://www.feinewerkzeuge.de/superstone800-5000a.jpg
Super-Kombischleifstein Körnung 800/5000
Serie Super Stone
http://www.feinewerkzeuge.de/superstone12000a.jpg
Abziehstein Körnung 12000
Serie Super Stone

Olivia,

This is the site I couldn't find the hones on.

Naniwa Deutschland - Super Stone

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

People in Binghmpton, NY don't think that behavior is so sweet. :td

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That was actually a reference to this page:

Are you ready to get pumped

But I'm sure that there are alot of samurai that really didn't like the joke either.... :rolleyes:

English just click on the little german flag on the left side menu of www.fine-tools.com
then choose Schärfwerkzeuge. It gets you a list similar to the english one.
Then there is a link to the naniwa stones. The combos are all the way down the page.

Olivia,

There are two different internet sites.

Fine Tools

and

Naniwa Germany.

I think you are looking at the Fine Tools site.

If you look at the OFFICIAL NANIWA Site the combination stones do not exist. Also on the NANIWA site, you will see they sell two types of SUPER HONE.

SUPER and SUPER+.

Is it me or you is confused. Best regards.

Just another thought, although I think some of the previous posters already came up with some better explanations: Maybe one system uses the average grit size, while the other uses the minimum/maximum grit size. I dunno...

English, the Naniwa Germany site is for wholesale.
Maybe its not the only source or they do offer more variety on request, since fine-tools has them.
Guess I'm going to pay that guy a visit. He's in Berlin as well.
Thanks for that link.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OLD_SCHOOL

Well this is a complete left field guess, but again with my temperature analogy. There is a point I think in the negatives, where Fahrenheit and Celsius are the same. I will also point out that this is from high school memory, which is not exactly fresh anymore so I could be mistaken. ;)

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Not that it matters a whit for grits, but yes, the two scales are coincident at one point. That is, minus 40F equals minus 40C.

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Originally Posted by English

The best site I have found for Hones and Naniwa hones is the following:

Japanese Waterstones: Naniwa

You have to page down to see the hones.

But clearly there is a 12000 grit.

I've just ordered the 800/5000 to complement my Chosera. I'll let you know how it goes but the 800/5000 and the 3000/8000 combo stones represent great value. The price will I think probably rise soon.

Interestingly on the Naniwa Duetschland web site, they don't list the 12000 hone or the combination hones.

Also to add to the confusion, they advertise a Superstone range and a more expensive Superstone + range.

So it gets more confusing.

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But the problem I'm having is, this stone is not available in JAPAN. Foreign market yes, Japanese market no. This is what troubles me so...this is what keeps me up at night, weeping and moaning...beating my breast in misery...

I do think there is a difference between the Japanese grit and American grit standards. Here are a few charts i came up with... might help some.

Conversion Chart Abrasives - Grit Sizes

http://www2.woodcraft.com/PDF/77A40.pdf

Abrasive grit sizes of belts, wheels and stones used in knifemaking, sharpening and woodworking

http://www.cumi-murugappa.com/abrasi...it_compare.pdf

Well that first chart shows the 15k USA is equivalent to the 12k Japanese so maybe that is why my two Shapton pros look alike and the 12k is supposedly not for sale in the USA ? :gaah: OTOH, the 15k is a higher priced stone by $10.00.:shrug: I'll have to do some comparison honing with the pair to see if they are indeed the same animal.

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Well that first chart shows the 15k USA is equivalent to the 12k Japanese so maybe that is why my two Shapton pros look alike and the 12k is supposedly not for sale in the USA ? :gaah: OTOH, the 15k is a higher priced stone by $10.00.:shrug: I'll have to do some comparison honing with the pair to see if they are indeed the same animal.

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Please do, I'm keen to know...

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Originally Posted by JimR

Please do, I'm keen to know...

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Today I looked at the two side by side with my B&L 30x stereo microscope and I cannot tell them apart. I suspect that they are one and the same. :shrug: .....but I may be wrong. Only 30x and I'm not an expert.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Today I looked at the two side by side with my B&L 30x stereo microscope and I cannot tell them apart. I suspect that they are one and the same. :shrug: .....but I may be wrong. Only 30x and I'm not an expert.

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Well, it wouldn't surprise me. I mean, the same color in a color coded set would just be odd, especially coming from the same factory. I mean, how do they not mix them up?

Of course, the real test is in use...and your use tells you something different, right? Who knows. They're both good stones, let's just leave it at that...

Nah, who am I kidding? I NEED TO KNOOOOOOWWWW!!!!!!

Jim I do not believe that Japanese sharpening stones are re-labeled or recalibrated to suit the standards of another country.

16k Shapton is .92micrometer regardless of being JP version or USA.

when you switch between standards a bit of testing is all it takes. 8k norton is not the same as 8k naniwa, which may or may not be the same as shapton or king, or takenoko etc.

They are all different- as there is more to a sharpening stone than grit size.

try different things- if every stone cant fit into a niche- get more things to sharpen.

wait...what was the question?/?

Not to drudge up an old thread but I have a question about the micron to grit conversions. I'm going to get diamond pastes and I've decided to get 1 and 0.5.

Here's how Norton equates its stones to micron size:
3 micron = 8K
1 micron = they have no equivalent stone
.5 micron = 15K

Does anyone know which conversion is more accurate? If it's Joe's, then I'll get both 1 and 0.5 micron sizes. But if Norton's is right, then I might as well just get the 0.5 diamond paste. Thanks.OK. Here's the whole story.

I say 50K for .5 and 100K for .25, because that's what the diamond companies say. You can find a diamond paste chart at straightrazorplace.com.

In stone grits there are many standards. The two that concern us are the US and Japanese. The traditional US standard uses a screen, and if a particle passes through the screen, it's that size. In other words, grit size is the LARGEST particle in the mix. The Japanese use the average size. So, they will have twice the grit number compared to the US.

The US matches sandpaper, so a 2000 grit stone is like 2000 sandpaper, but the Japanese size for the same grit is 4000. The Norton waterstones like the 4k/8K use the Japanese system, so if you wanted to use sandpaper of the grit, it is really 2K/4K. A 15K grit by the US standard is .5 micron (30K Japanese), and 30K grit US (60K Japanese) is .25 micron.

When you see that a 15K is .5 micron, that's the US standard. For a waterstone it's 30K (see a Shapton chart).

In any case, you can rely on the numbers I gave you when comparing paste and waterstones. They're a combination of what the diamond paste companies tell you about .5 and .25 microns and the Japanese standard for waterstones, which Norton also uses for its waterstones.

The moral of the story is that you always need to know what system is being used for the grit you're looking at.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl

Not to drudge up an old thread but I have a question about the micron to grit conversions. I'm going to get diamond pastes and I've decided to get 1 and 0.5.

Here's how Norton equates its stones to micron size:
3 micron = 8K
1 micron = they have no equivalent stone
.5 micron = 15K

Does anyone know which conversion is more accurate? If it's Joe's, then I'll get both 1 and 0.5 micron sizes. But if Norton's is right, then I might as well just get the 0.5 diamond paste. Thanks.OK. Here's the whole story.

I say 50K for .5 and 100K for .25, because that's what the diamond companies say. You can find a diamond paste chart at straightrazorplace.com.

In stone grits there are many standards. The two that concern us are the US and Japanese. The traditional US standard uses a screen, and if a particle passes through the screen, it's that size. In other words, grit size is the LARGEST particle in the mix. The Japanese use the average size. So, they will have twice the grit number compared to the US.

The US matches sandpaper, so a 2000 grit stone is like 2000 sandpaper, but the Japanese size for the same grit is 4000. The Norton waterstones like the 4k/8K use the Japanese system, so if you wanted to use sandpaper of the grit, it is really 2K/4K. A 15K grit by the US standard is .5 micron (30K Japanese), and 30K grit US (60K Japanese) is .25 micron.

When you see that a 15K is .5 micron, that's the US standard. For a waterstone it's 30K (see a Shapton chart).

In any case, you can rely on the numbers I gave you when comparing paste and waterstones. They're a combination of what the diamond paste companies tell you about .5 and .25 microns and the Japanese standard for waterstones, which Norton also uses for its waterstones.

The moral of the story is that you always need to know what system is being used for the grit you're looking at.

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This is a good question Sham.

I have lapping film that is labeled as #10000 grit with a micron value of 0.5

I also have lapping film that is labeled #15000 grit with a micron value of 0.3

Also the #8000 grit is 1.0 microns.

I know that these numbers are going to look wacky to a number of you but they are all packaged 3M lapping film that I bought here in Tokyo.

I was under the impression that 0.5 micron was in the Chromium Oxide range and was a mesh grit of approx. 30000 but mine is labeled #10000.

It doesn't affect my honing though. I get great edges off of them nomatter the numbering system.

i know i am confused about all this. what i am finding out now by using shapton 16000 is strange. makes me more confused.I have to do couple more testes to find out what is going on with shaptons,i have never seen anyone complaining about it. Everyone very happy with shapton 16000 .Lets see

Your statement about the Shapton #16000 is also a little puzzling to me.

I know many of the users here that have and use the shapton #16000 are extremely happy with the results (I don't have one nor do I plan to get one).

I have read the Japanese language Glass Stone pdf a number of times and what is puzzling is how the #16000 is rated so low for use with razors. It has the lowest rating in the chart, along side hones #1000 and lower.

Oddly the majority of the other stones are all mid range 'good/appropriate' for use with razors. But the 'optimal' hones in the glass series is the #3000, the #10000 (newly released) and the #30000.

It is just so puzzling as to why the owners of the #16000 laud its greatness when the manufacturer down plays it as appropriateness for use in polishing razors.

Don't get me wrong, I am a firm beleiver that the proof in is the pudding, and with all of the great results by chrisL and others who can argue its worth, but why the poor rating from Shapton...?