Wire Edges And Magnification To See Them

Discussing honing techniques with Superfly raised some interesting questions. Hopefully we can explore them with this thread and help all of us to become more knowledgeable honemeisters.


First, I'm not sure a wire edge can always be felt with the fingernail. If it is straight, it looks like a clean edge. But a wire edge would be thin, so after your first shave with one, there should be signs of a disintegrating edge caused by your beard chopping out little hair shaped gullies in the edge. This will not show up using a 10x or 20x loupe. You need at least 60x microscope to see it. Except for very general use, I find that a 10x or 20x loupe is over-rated as a tool for edge examination. Even the radio shack microscope is a much more useful tool for far less money.

My problem has not been the inability to create a very sharp edge on a razor. For me, the problem has been to create one that lasts. I use a modified X pattern where I do 5 to 10 strokes on one side followed by 5 to 10 strokes on the other. Superfly feels this can cause a wire edge by doing it this way rather than alternating strokes on different sides of the blade. That may be true, but if so why? What is the logic and mechanics involved? What are the responsible factors in creating a wire edge, and how do we avoid creating one? We have had many discussions on removing a wire edge, but how do we avoid creating one in the first place?

string,

I think that in normal honing patern, you builg up a dull edge slowly and evenly from the both sides of the blade. The point is to stop exactly when the two sides of the blade meet in one point (indefinetelt small in theory). That is the perfectly sharp edge. You then polich away the fine teeth that 6K/8K10K stone left in and get the perfect razor egde we all desire. Knowing when to stop is the tricky part.

With your modified pattern, when you do the 10 on one, than 10 on the other side, you are doing an overkill, you sharpen one side, thus creating an larger uneaven bevel, then trying to meet that bevel from the other side with the equal amount of strokes. This is fine for now. Since the point of honing is to stop when the edge is right, to prevent forming wire egde (too tin to cut), you are failing to do this by not knowing the point in time when the razor is sharp.
Your edge was maybe sharp at stroke 3 or 4. Your 6+ strokes are doing nothing but forming the wire edge. And you cant stop either, because you will ruin the proper bevel of the razor, wich has to be equal on the both sides.

If you like your way of sharpening, you alternate the patterns more frequently, let say 3 x 3 or so, i think you will be on the safe side.

Also, i think that important part of creating a wire edge is honing with larger pressure then needed to remove metal. This bends the edge. On the starting strokes i think slightly larger pressure is OK, but to avoig creating the wire edge, the last strokes must be done with no presure at all on the razor.


Well, this is my opinion on the wire edge, any thoughts from the real honemaisters here are welcomed:)

These couple of items may help, or help confuse, depending:

Detecting a wire edge

Removing a wire edge

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...neBayrazor.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...edge-front.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...eedge-back.jpg

I agree with what you are saying Superfly, but I guess I really didn't fill you in on some important information. When I hone, I do it by feel. If the edge is still rough, I can feel it with the stone. So I don't actually do an arbitrary number of strokes...say 8 or 10. I go up to 10 or until I feel the edge smooth out and start to slide smoothly over the stone...indicating that the edge is as good as that stone is going to get it. As soon as I feel that one one side, I stop right there and turn the blade over and match the number of strokes I just did. If one side is smooth, and the other side still rough, I keep going the same way til both sides glide smoothly over the stone. To my way of thinking, I should have less chance of overhoning this way then by using the pyramid system where you do a fixed number of repetitions on each side of the blade and not checking for 5 strokes or so on each side. The razor may have been sharp enough on the 2nd stroke.
At least that is the theory. I may get into trouble using my technique when one side is smooth, and I have to keep honing it to keep up with the strokes I do on the rough side. I don't know.

Just my two cents on this.

I do not know of a method to detect an "almost" wire edge. The wire edge will first act as though it is like a piece of aluminum foil, flimsy, and will skip over whiskers. Beyond that point the wire edge will start to disintegrate, with small pieces "chunking off. See Davids photo's.

I see nothing wrong with your method of honing. As long as it gets you to the desired end goal then stick with it. It sounds like what you want is a surefire way of determining when the edge is at its optimum sharpness. Sorry, that does not exist. Men have been trying to find just such a method for over 100 years. None have found it.
What most of us use is a "test shave". Hone, test shave , hone etc until the razor is where we want it.
With practice and patience you will get better at judging the sharpness of an edge.

Good luck, :)

Hello David,

The photo's are really appreciated. The should be in the files section so others can learn from them. Me included.

However the below liosted links did not work for me.

Thanks for all your help,


[quote="uthed"]These couple of items may help, or help confuse, depending:

Detecting a wire edge

Removing a wire edge

:) :)

Thanks for the photos David. After looking at these photos, the solution is obvious. I need a better microscope. 8) I want that edge in the top photo, and mine don't look like that. Will look through some of my razors and see if any look like they have a 3 day shadow, and if so, then I will know why. Now for the final question...I promise. Can you get a good first shave from a razor that has a wire edge before the edge starts to disentegrate? I get beautiful shaves from razors but occasionally find that after I dry the razor well, strop and put away that when I go back to it maybe a week later, it doesn't shave nearly as well. Heavy stropping, somtimes both on linen as well as leather will bring it back to 90%, but nothing seems to make it shave as well as it did the first shave. That has been a puzzle for me, and the main reason I had for starting this thread, wondering if a wire edge was the culprit.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by string

Thanks for the photos David. After looking at these photos, the solution is obvious. I need a better microscope. 8) I want that edge in the top photo, and mine don't look like that. Will look through some of my razors and see if any look like they have a 3 day shadow, and if so, then I will know why. Now for the final question...I promise. Can you get a good first shave from a razor that has a wire edge before the edge starts to disentegrate? I get beautiful shaves from razors but occasionally find that after I dry the razor well, strop and put away that when I go back to it maybe a week later, it doesn't shave nearly as well. Heavy stropping, somtimes both on linen as well as leather will bring it back to 90%, but nothing seems to make it shave as well as it did the first shave. That has been a puzzle for me, and the main reason I had for starting this thread, wondering if a wire edge was the culprit.

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No .... the wire edge will tug and pull and may even scratch and leave a razor burn.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by randydance062449

Hello David,

The photo's are really appreciated. The should be in the files section so others can learn from them. Me included.

However the below liosted links did not work for me.

Thanks for all your help,

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They are links to the old Yahoo! forums messages:
Message # 49253
Message # 49209

I sharpen lots of things in addition to straight razors and am really at odds with most folk about creating a wire edge. As a knife maker I work really hard to get a nice hardened edge with a backbone of softer tempered steel. I really hate to see all of that good steel go to waste when a wire edge is worked off. It really accelerates tool life.

I find that the wire edge is created mostly on the backstroke. I therefore don't usually backstroke. If it's created on a forward stroke probably too much pressure is being applied and the edge is curling up. Let the stone do its work on the steel. Examine the edge frequently under magnification. I agree with uthed about loupes not being enough magnification. I have two Radio Shacks and one is in the cabinet with my razors. I also have a stereo microscope but have stopped hauling it up to the bathroom.

Howard