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Hey Gents,
Sorry, I know the Black Surgical Stone topic has been beaten to death, but I have an 8", very clean, smooth and level stone that I use to put a final edge on my high carbon broad heads in the fall - water only.
I just want to stay ahead on edge maintenance on a newly honed DOVO, not create a new bevel. Can I use this stone with confidence (although slow), then linen, then leather to "touch up" the razor once a month or two?
Thanks,
Alpsman.
Hi Alpsman,
I don't have any experience with the stone
you're talking about, but in general going
to the stone once a month seems like a bit
much to me, given sufficient daily stropping
on the linen and leather.
I don't think there's any benefit to being
`ahead of the curve' so to speak, I would
just hone it when necessary -- that is, as
soon as you detect that the edge is pulling
more than you'd like.
- Scott
There are some people that touch up regularly on Barber's hones but I am not familiar enough to tell you about the Arkansas stone and whether it would work to do the same...
I did re-freshes on one stone for years, with two razors before I finally found SRP and actually learned about "Honing" then I caught HAD RAD RRD SAD BAD and every other Shave Flu out there :p
I will say this, this is the second time I have read about your desire to try that stone, so it looks as though it is "written in the stone" so to say...
You will never know until you try it, it will either work or you will be sending the razor out for a re-hone :gl:
LOL! Big time observant! Actually, I just won a razor last night on the bay that might need a touch up, and I really don't want to spend any more $ on shaving for a while. So, I was hoping to kill two birds with one "stone" . . . . he he , sorry . . . Anyway, as soon as I get this razor In the mail I should know if I can touch it up or need to send it off to Lynn.
Thanks!
I don't have those stones (well one in the refurbish box) but I do use the same stones for my kitchen knives. As stated above try it out and see where it stands, you never know till you try.
I lucked out by getting my grandfathers coticule so I do now have a razor only hone :)
I think the surgical Black Arkansas is usually rated at about 6k on the Japanese scale. I've used one followed by chrome oxide (or newspaper) with good results. They do cut slower than most other options.
Glen said on his message the easiest and cheapest way will be to use barber hones which one depends on you. You can by swaty 2 line will do the job, c-mon, or want to go more expensive you can buy double duck dry hone or you want to go more then that 00frictionate if this will not satisfies you then move on to norton razor hone by the way last one will cost you around 300-500. good luck
hope this helps.
I have a black and a translucent. I have used them on straights. They work, and they won't hurt anything since they cut slow. I am not that experienced with them, but I would be surprised if you'll get good shaves just from these. Hopefully someone can add to this.
Olivia said in another thread, "I'm a great friend of the translucent white Arkansas as a finisher." Maybe she will be here later and tell us how it's done!
I say try it out, I touched up a Robeson Shuredge this morning with a 1x3 translucent. I did circular strokes with water then finished up with x pattern strokes using lather on the stone. I then did 75 on both the leather and linen. It is not a super duper sharp edge but it is an edge that is very easy on my face.
The razor was already shaving sharp when I started, I would not want to do any metal removal with an Arkansas stone.
I would make sure the edges of the stone are not square before trying.
Charlie
I sometimes finish with a 8 X 3 black surgical Arkansas stone. It is a really sl000000000000wwwwww finisher, but appreciably increases the sharpness of the blade after honing on a coticule. For an experiment, I rubbed the Arkansas (unknown grit but very hard-harder than any of my translucent Arkansas stones) with my coticule slurry stone. To my surprise, I got a nice slurry, visible metal removal and a sharp edge quickly. Have not tried to duplicate this since. YMMV.
The black one should even be a bit harder than the translucent, isn't it?
I don't have a black one (yet), so I can only tell for the translucent.
So far its my best finisher after an Escher or a C12k.
Last week a customer told me about his shaving experience with a Dorko razor I just sold him.
He said its the sharpest blade he's ever seen (and he got some variety).
I can only rely on the customers and not test myself of course.
The stone works well with a bit of detergent or lather
(I always use home made glass cleaner made from detergent, alcohol and demineralized water)
and you need a good number of strokes (80 - 100) to get any effect. (When the lather turns grey)
Croaker I would not ruffle it up. Its really best when it shines.
Olivia,
I am not advising that the black Arkansas stone be added to anyone's honing series, but it did indeed help the edge on 2 razors I experimented with. Oddly enough, I used lather on the stone after the slurry, and it made the blade really hug the hone from suction, as you find with your detergent and alcohol mixture. That may have accounted for the increase in sharpness. I have noticed that using lather on a coticule, with no slurry, will still cause the lather to turn grey with metal particles. A soapy solution is great for honing, unless it soaks into your hone. That happened to my Nortons, and suds came out of my 4000 grit stone for a week! I don't use Nortons anymore because I get better results with my coticules, 12K Chinese, and Shapton. Thanks for sharing your experiences and technique. I don't really feel that Arkansas stones have much of a place in straight razor honing, after seeing the difference when I use a really excellent hone.
I have a translucent that I have used on only a couple of edges. I have yet to work with the black one I have as a finisher as I am of the impression that it is either of the same or lesser grit that the translucent. I could be wrong, though, as I have yet to use it.
I wouldn't use the translucent all by itself as a finisher. It took me hundreds of laps to get the edge I wanted off of it coming off of a dragon's tongue. I have used it on an edge finished with a shapton 12k pro, and it took much less laps. It did take away from the sharpness a little, but made the edge much smoother. Not as smooth as a coticle would have left it, but still much less harsh than the shapton. I would say it is somewhere around 10k in grit and very slow. If the black one is similar to the translucent, then you could probably use it to maintain an edge, but it would take more laps than a barbers hone.
Oh yes, after a Dragon's Tongue its almost senseless
but after a 12 k its at its right place.
OK, Science Time! (or my best version of it)
I did some experiments and took photos. First, I rubbed a Chinese 12k on my Black Arkansas under running water. No type of slurry developed, both stones are lapped well and very smooth. They stuck together a lot. Next. I took a Shapton 16k and did the same thing to both the 12k and Arkansas. A small amount of white slurry was raised on the Chinese stone, and almost none on the Arkansas. Finally, I did scratch tests on the Arkansas, Chinese 12k, and Translucent Arkansas using a steel safety pin. As you can see from the photos, there were barely visible scratches on the Black, slight scratching on the Translucent, and heavy scratching on the Chinese. My conclusion is that both my Black and Translucent Arkansas stones are harder than the supposedly 12K Chinese stone. I am going to do some honing experiments with all three stones to see which provides the sharpest edge, and which provides the best shave.
A swaty barber hone and a good strop will give you a long lasting edge for a long long time. You can also use a pasted strop with chromium oxide if you want, but the edge does hit a dull point after a while with the paste and will need to be honed.
What I did is bought a coticule and a belgian blue stone for touching up my razors. The bbw with slurry about 50 strokes and then diluting to just water for another 50 or so. Then the coticule with water. I think coticules are just awesome though. It's all about your tastes.
If you're a simple guy, with simply needs and want to get things done well but quickly, just got a barber's hone, do 5-10 passes on it and you'll keep your edge for a long time.
I agree with you that a coticule and a Swaty could be pretty much all you needed....most of the time. There are some troublesome razors that need something else to get them shave ready, and that leads to HAD!! You can't set a bevel on a damaged or seriously unevenly honed blade with a BBW, Swaty, or coticule, and for those situations you need some other options. (DMT, coarse hone, sandpaper etc).Quote:
Originally Posted by Disburden
I don't doubt that the arkansas stones are harder than the chinese, but I don't think a safety pin would put a scratch in either one of them. Are you sure that the line on the translucent isn't just the metal from the safety pin? It looks awfully dark to be a scratch.
Quote:
Originally Posted by crazycliff200843
Good thought, crazycliff. I just got the translucent Arkansas stone out again, dark lines still on it, and was able to rub them off with my finger. Underneath both dark lines were faint white ones, which polished off with a cloth. I think the white lines were actual scratches, but just barely visible. The dark lines were metal, as you thought. The white lines on the Chinese stone are scratches. So, what is the "real" hardness of novaculite? It probably depends on the mineral outcropping where it was quarried, like Belgian coticules. I am guessing that my Black Arkansas might be greater than 16000 grit, since a Shapton was unable to raise a slurry on it. Diamond is the hardest substance on Earth!
Here's a Arkansas Stone Grade Table. The specific gravities seem interesting. I have a black and a pink translucent, both are slipstones. I always had the impression that the pink translucent is a bit finer than the surgical black. It's a close call though.
Very cool site! :tu
What a variety they have! Even big ones.
That they go by density instead of grit is something new to me but does make sense.
Hardness for Novaculite is unavailable,
but for Quarz it is 7
whereas Korund is 9 and
Diamond is 10
What I have learned from this interesting thread is that I have been thinking of grit and hardness of a hone interchangeably, when actually they are not at all the same thing. A fine grit hone will polish a razor edge well. A very hard hone will do so also, although possibly much more slowly. Novaculite is extremely hard, with a MOH hardness of 7. (just looked it up in a chemical company reference manual). That means that a surgical Black Arkansas hone has the same hardness as if it was made out of solid garnet. Wow! Unfortunately, it is a slow polisher and does not really remove metal at all, in my experience. I just honed a razor that was not passing the HHT on my black Arkansas, until it would pass the HHT off the hone.I t took about 200 passes. I then stropped it 50 on linen and 50 on leather. Tomorrow, I plan to shave with it and see if the edge is appreciably better than usual for that razor.
As far as novaculite is concerned, I think the hardness is related to the grit. The harder the stone, the higher the grit. As all arkansas stones are made of the same material, the density is the big difference between them. That's probably why you couldn't find a definitive value for the hardness.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Croaker
Hey Croaker, thanks for this info. Thanks much to the rest of you fine people. I was actually worried that this post would result in series of potential flame replies just because it has been asked before in previous posts (searched).
Croaker, let me know for sure either PM or better yet, re-post here. If you get good results, then I wonder if I can just get the Belgium Coti (to go with my Belgium beer!), and a slurry stone, then finalize on the black, then linen, then strop. Or would hitting the black be overkill? Dunno. I am stoked though.
Thanks,
Alpsman
I have an Arkansas Translucent and all I can say, which has already been said, is that it is way slow. Somewhat unpredictable as well. I don't know if it's going to take 50 strokes or 100 or 150 to get the polish and result I need on a given razor. I put about 50 razors to the test on this a few years ago and started off with just 10 strokes. Silly me. Don't try to lap one of these with any kind of diamond product.......:D
Have fun,
Lynn
I kind of like the white translucent (as will be evident from earlier posts) - 50 to 75 laps after a thuringian seemed to do it most times for me. I have had experience of the black as well, and IMHO the white translucent is a finer stone. What Lynn says about not honing these on a diamond plate is right - it really took the life out of my DMT 325 and left it more like a 600!
Regards,
Neil
Alpsman wrote:
> I just want to stay ahead on edge maintenance on a newly honed DOVO, not create a new bevel. Can I use this stone with confidence (although slow), then linen, then leather to "touch up" the razor once a month or two?
Yes; that should work just fine. That's what I do. :-)
It's probably because of my inexperience with razor honing and years of using them for knives in general, but I sort of like the slowness of Arkansas stones. They seem to protect better against the occasional error in technique than the faster cutters do.
Yes - you guys aren't kidding about lapping them with diamond plates - I smoothed out a coarse diamond sharpener prettly handily doing that also.
Lynn - Do synthetic stones show more consistent numbers of honing strokes across various razors/steels than the Arkansas stones? That's really interesting; I wonder why that is so? Because of their faster cutting action?
Thanks,
Jeff
i know this question is aimed at lynn but i wanted to add my 2 cents, but whatever lynn says please listen to him over me.Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffR
synth stones are man made. you always know what your getting. i can take my naniwa 12k stone (thats on its way ;]) use it, then go out get another naniwa 12k and it works the same, no change in quailty, no questioning "is this really the right stone for this application"
i sharpen chisels with the dmt d6 line and everytime i go to sharpen the chisel i know what to expect. same with razors. its a constant. there is very little variance in it.
the natural stone guys will talk about zen and how synth hones are boring, but thats coool because thats what they get out of honing. me, i dont have $120 to spend on an hone and hope its gonna do what i want.
i just ordered the naniwa 12k as a finishing stone. i was told by a special someone that it rivals the shapton 16k for less money. give it a shot. you seem like you know what your doing, you hone knives. try it out see what you think. if you dont like it, sell it on here, that stone would sell faster than audrey hepburn's ass on a street corner (i have a think for audrey hepburn, shes my dream woman ;])
unlike Senor D I like natural stones
a nice natural stone is like a exceptional stock on a rifle
I have plastic stocks but I've never fallen in love with one of them
or like picking wild blueberries and finding one the size of your thumb
if you find a monster in a store bought pack then it just set you back 4 regular size blueberries
my love of natural things brought me to translucent and a very very fine slick black arkansas
HOLY FREAKIN SLOW !!!!! :gaah:
I sold them.
I MEAN SLOOOOOOOOOOOOWWWWWWWW
Saves you the most of your blade, hehehe
It helps a lot when your blade is well prepared. :)
In the last episode of "Surgical Black Arkansas", we left Croaker after he had honed his trusty razor for 200 passes on a superfine surgical black Arkansas 8X3 stone, then stropped lustily for 50 passes on linen followed by the finishing 50 passes on leather. Time for the shave report:
The blade was appreciably sharper than after my coticule, but tugged more and felt less comfortable during the shave. The closeness was no better than if I had just used my coticule, and the process took about 10 X longer. So, I may sell my Arkansas too. And it's gigantic big brother. I have what may be the worlds largest translucent Arkansas hone, weighing several pounds. Lap that one! Pics will follow when I return from my current road trip to Scottsdale AZ. Also I got real lucky at an antique store yesterday afternoon, and acquired a good size Belgian double sided coticule/BBW, plus an ancient Wade & Butcher wedge with a huge humpback. Pics to follow on that one too, in a different forum.
Good night, all!
I finished the same razor I had used with a tranlucent arkansas with the black one I have and it seems it is a little less smooth and less sharp. I used the black one after a shapton 12k pro and finished with plain leather, just as I had with the translucent. But, I have only honed with it once, and there could be a lot of reasons for the results I got. On the other hand, the results seem consistent with what I have heard about the performance of both and the conditions under which I shave are pretty much the same on a day to day basis.
But, I have to say that it did shave, so I guess it could be used for touch ups. I would imagine that you could get better results with a different stone, though. The translucent seemed to be a step up from the black in sharpness and smoothness. Personally, I get better results from using the shapton and a coticle.
Thanks for the test results. That is similar to my experience.Quote:
Originally Posted by crazycliff200843
Here is something else to try when you want to experiment more. Lap your 12K with the translucent to generate a 12k slurry. Then hone on the translucent with the 12k slurry. I tried this today (10k slurry on a translucent) and found the results interesting. It seemed to help a problem razor of mine that was not responding well to finishing with waterstones.