When to use an X and when to use a 45-X

Could someone please describe the exact difference between a "straight edge" razor versus a razor with a slight smiling curve? I'm mostly looking to figure out what distinguishes a razor that makes you use either the regular X stroke or the 45-degree X stroke.

I've never owned a brand new razor before, but it seems to me that all of the razors I've seen up close have at least a very small curve to them. I'm talking about tenths of a millimeter here. So how much of a smile does a razor have to have to figure out what stroke to use?

I know that the best answer to this is probably "try the different strokes out and see how they work," but I'm still not great at honing, and I'd like to eliminate as many variables as I can =)

Wait a sec, I just thought of something - could the marker test help to determine what kind of stroke to use?

I go by very simple rule - the stroke must ensure that the full edge of the razor gets in contact with the hone with the same (as little as possible) pressure throughout it.
The stroke is whatever it takes to accomplish this.

I guess a marker may help you determine if you're not achieving the desired result, just check it after each stroke as it doesn't take much to remove it.

I figure it out pretty quickly how much of an angle I have to angle the blade to get it to contact fully. But...I suppose I've got more experience than you.

At one extreme is the straight line. At the other is this: http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/t...u/royal-01.jpg

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/t...u/royal-04.jpg

I've pretty much gotten into the habit of using about a 30 degree x stroke for everything. The only time I hone perpendicular to the stone is just for the novelty of it. I've never really understood why the 45 degree angle is supposed to help more with smiling blades. To me, they require more of a rolling x. I don't see why a 45 degree rotation in and of itself, has any impact on how the blade makes contact with the hone.

I've wondered about this but never had the sense to ask, so thank you to Huntmol.

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Originally Posted by Utopian

I've pretty much gotten into the habit of using about a 30 degree x stroke for everything. The only time I hone perpendicular to the stone is just for the novelty of it. I've never really understood why the 45 degree angle is supposed to help more with smiling blades. To me, they require more of a rolling x. I don't see why a 45 degree rotation in and of itself, has any impact on how the blade makes contact with the hone.

I've wondered about this but never had the sense to ask, so thank you to Huntmol.

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I am still amazed every time I pull a smiling blade off the hones and shave with it. :D It just works so well and is just so darned simple!!!

Kudos to Lynn for giving me the "secret". :tu


My theory as to why it works:
The entire blade is not sitting on the hone evenly when the razor is 45*. And all the swarf collects right at the edge of the hone, just like a rocking stroke. Therefore, I think it works exactly the same, its just easier.

Probably easier because the difference in distance between the edge and the spine due the smile is made less by angling the blade. Therefore, the middle doesn't "rock" the blade as much allowing us to lay the blade almost perfectly flat. :shrug:

I dunno, I just know it works.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Utopian

I've pretty much gotten into the habit of using about a 30 degree x stroke for everything. The only time I hone perpendicular to the stone is just for the novelty of it. I've never really understood why the 45 degree angle is supposed to help more with smiling blades. To me, they require more of a rolling x. I don't see why a 45 degree rotation in and of itself, has any impact on how the blade makes contact with the hone.

I've wondered about this but never had the sense to ask, so thank you to Huntmol.

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I agree 45 degree never worked for me just slight roll works straight away it s simple even at 45 degree the heal does'nt hit the hone it just stays on hone alittle longer

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Originally Posted by huntmol

Could someone please describe the exact difference between a "straight edge" razor versus a razor with a slight smiling curve? I'm mostly looking to figure out what distinguishes a razor that makes you use either the regular X stroke or the 45-degree X stroke.

I've never owned a brand new razor before, but it seems to me that all of the razors I've seen up close have at least a very small curve to them. I'm talking about tenths of a millimeter here. So how much of a smile does a razor have to have to figure out what stroke to use?

I know that the best answer to this is probably "try the different strokes out and see how they work," but I'm still not great at honing, and I'd like to eliminate as many variables as I can =)

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Just use marker test it is the best way to me then i alter my stroke to slight roll if needed which normaly is even on regular blades if you want to get the very toe and heal

Thanks guys! I'll have to give that 30-degree X stroke a shot

Use the magic marker trick no matter what angle you use. The one other clue to watch is the flow of water in front of the edge. It should move from heel to toe and not under the edge of the razor.

The first time I put any newly acquired razor to a stone I always use the marker on the edge. It tells me whether a regular x stroke brings the edge in full contact with the surface of the hone in a couple of strokes. Once I know if I need to use a regular x, a heel leading 45 degree or a rolling x I wipe the edge off with lighter fluid to get excess marker off. I always get some up along the sides of the bevel and would rather get it off before the razor is sharpened. It is a good idea to keep notes on your honing and to write down what stroke you needed for each razor so you only have to do the marker test once on each one.

I have found IME that the 45 degree x works on some smiling blades while others do better with the rolling x. Depends on how extreme the smile or warp is. For the more radical smiling or warped blades the rolling x is what I feel is needed. I noticed after reading Lynn's suggestion on the 45 degree x that as the heel leaves the hone and your stroke is progressing the edge and spine will still lay on the surface. In a 0 degree x unless the blade is straight and flat it will not make full contact for the length of the blade.

This barber manual in the SRP Wiki help files here has been very helpful to me. Take a look at page 24 where the optimum edge profile and how to get and maintain it is described. I shoot for this to avoid the dreaded frown as described in the article. Good info on stropping in there as well.

Also note that the illustration showing the blade angle relative to the hone on page 23 is heel leading and around 10 degrees. The authors instruction to apply more pressure at the heel and point and almost none in the center is also something that I apply on blades unless they have a perfectly straight edge from heel to point. If that is the case I try for equal pressure all the way. The above is just IME and the way I my honing has evolved to date. Subject to change if I see or hear of a better way or discover something myself. In other words, YMMV. :)

For the most part, if I have a wedge with an unevenly honed bevel and edge or if I have a smiley blade, I go to the 45 degree angle X stroke. I use circles with 45 degrees as well for really messed up blades. I also use a 45 degree X stroke with a regular razor that has been honed down and has a very flattened or uneven spine or edge. Not being an engineer or scientist, I can't explain why, but the 45 degrees has always allowed the entire edge to hit the stone as I worked the X stroke. By not rolling or leaning the edge into the stone, it has proven to be very consistent and has taken a lot of the variables out of the stroke. But then, I like honing on a stable surface too vs. the palm of my hand. Different strokes for different folks.

Most of the techniques that work for me have come from experimenting and developing them with honing thousands of razors over the years. I totally realize that people will find their own ways of doing things and feel that is the best way for all of us to continue to learn. So if something works for someone on one razor or 10 razors and they love to post, we will continue to see new experts and new methods. I am in awe of this and the opportunity to try new things.

Have fun,

Lynn

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Originally Posted by Lynn

For the most part, if I have a wedge with an unevenly honed bevel and edge or if I have a smiley blade, I go to the 45 degree angle X stroke. I use circles with 45 degrees as well for really messed up blades. Not being an engineer or scientist, I can't explain why, but the 45 degrees has always allowed the entire edge to hit the stone as I worked the X stroke. By not rolling or leaning the edge into the stone, it has proven to be very consistent and has taken a lot of the variables out of the stroke. But then, I like honing on a stable surface too vs. the palm of my hand. Different strokes for different folks.

Most of the techniques that work for me have come from experimenting and developing them with honing thousands of razors over the years. I totally realize that people will find their own ways of doing things and feel that is the best way for all of us to continue to learn. So if something works for someone on one razor or 10 razors and they love to post, we will continue to see new experts and new methods. Tis a great thing.

Have fun,

Lynn

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Lynn probably forgot more about honing than I know and I'm not an expert yet but a big + 1 on honing on a stable surface. I know that there are respected honemiesters who favor the palm of the hand but having tried it I find it too difficult to keep the razor consistently flat while trying to keep the hone steady at the same time. Obviously YMMV.

I gotta ask here just for my own clarification....

When you guys do a rocking/rolling X are you actually liffting the spine as you roll through or rock through the stroke????? BTW are we officially calling it rock or roll???? yeah yeah I would rather call it Rock-n-Roll too :D....

it's got to be a really messed up blade for me to have to lift the spine off the hone (sometimes i do like lynn and even it out a bit first, but sometimes i just experiment but these are my razors and it doesn't matter how long it takes me to get the job).
so in almost all cases i keep the spine on the hone, but may rotate the razor if the geometry requires that for the edge to be in constant contact with the hone as well.

What I do that I call the rolling x will slightly lift the spine and the edge directly across from it but there will always be more of the blade .... spine and the edge directly across from it on the hone at all times. If by the nature of the blade it will not lie flat on the hone for the length of the blade than when the spine and edge at the heel are on the hone the spine and the edge at the point will be off of the hone and vis versa. Here is an example of a razor that I found it necessary to use a rolling x on..... YMMV but I doubt it. :)

I use rolling x quite regular even on regular blades i still find vert tip or very heal does'nt quite get there i always use black marker even watch the wave in front of blade but the marker tells all. I just lead with heal down first and gradualy rotate toward the toe at the end of x stroke always keeping spine flat in line with edge that is on the hone my stroke is pritty swift one to to keep things even if i go to slow i find it more unsteady little quiker better for me but it works every part of the edge.

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

What I do that I call the rolling x will slightly lift the spine and the edge directly across from it but there will always be more of the blade .... spine and the edge directly across from it on the hone at all times. If by the nature of the blade it will not lie flat on the hone for the length of the blade than when the spine and edge at the heel are on the hone the spine and the edge at the point will be off of the hone and vis versa. Here is an example of a razor that I found it necessary to use a rolling x on..... YMMV but I doubt it. :)

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OMG ! I wouldn't know where to start with that razor - Looks amazing though:o

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

I gotta ask here just for my own clarification....

When you guys do a rocking/rolling X are you actually liffting the spine as you roll through or rock through the stroke????? BTW are we officially calling it rock or roll???? yeah yeah I would rather call it Rock-n-Roll too :D....

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I don't think I lift. It's not my intention to.

Directed pressure is all in the fingers.