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I may well be overthinking what I read, but many members here attribute varying levels of "feedback" to different hones. What is a good working definition of "feedback" in the honing sense? Also, which hones give better feedback than others?
Not surprisingly, I'm looking for ways to improve my honing technique, and I think I need to better understand what my current results are telling me. Does feedback help with this?
Thanks
Good question:
to me, "feedback" is the amount of drag you get as you slide a razor over a given hone. This feeling will change as you get closer to a shaving sharp edge.
On my limited selection of hones, I can feel the razor kind of suck down and increase drag as it gets closer to true sharp.
Coticules have a chalky, gritty, but good feel as you use them.
My single, sad little Japanese hone has a more grabby, soft, almost like scything through clay feeling.
Thuringians have a softer, smoother, sort of velvety feel. Kinda between a Japanese grabby, clay feeling and a coti.
My Spyderco fine and ultra-fine have almost no feedback at all, the blade just kind of skates across the top with a smooth, icecube feeling.
My Swaty hone feels gummy and grabby, and by carborundum hones feel like a finer version of a coticule.
Excellent summary. :tuQuote:
Originally Posted by joke1176
That was a good reply. I think of feedback as the hones ability to communicate that the razor is sharp without me having to assess the edge through some test procedure.
For me the sensation is pulling and a smoooooooth draw that makes the razor feel like its moving over molasses.
I only use a Norton 8K for general honing. I use a Carborundum barber hone for touch ups (but it provides zero feedback).
Feedback has different meanings to different people as well. I didn't even consider any of the above responces untill I read them haha, but I do agree with them.
To me when I think of feedback I'm feeling what that stone and steel are doing with each other. Some steels just flat out don't like some stones. Being a hard core carbon steel nut I have gotten used to how my knives feel on different stones. One advantage of going to big gatherings :D You can try MANY different things. I've used stones that work great with some steels so very well and so poorly with other steels. And this problem is noticeable through Feedback.
Example, King brand stones, notably the 6k, works great and flawlessly on carbon steel, a few passes with a stainless blade with leave the stone SO glazed that the feedback feels like a smoothed over pebble road.
Shapton glass stones seem to be the same way with carbon steel, but not as bad. I fing I have to clean off the glass stones after as few as 10 passes of my kitchen knives. Not so much with my straights.
All this is part of what I call feedback.
I've higlighted some points that I've found to be important. I'm not good at interpreting the feedback I get, but I definintely notice how the feel changes during the process. Sometimes the first few strokes feel completely different to what you get even as few as 10 strokes later. But you reach a point where it stabilises - every stroke has the same feel no matter how long you continue.Quote:
Originally Posted by joke1176
Once you reach the point where nothing is changing it's a good time to stop!
+1 on the feeling changing as you approach the limit of sharpness with that particular stone, and not having any further changes. I would like to add two other things I watch and listen for: I start to hear a "wheeting" sound from my coticule when I reach that level of sharpness, as I draw the blade down during the X pattern. Also, I see absolutely even waves of water moving away from the blade, along it's full length. No interruptions. For whatever it's worth!
Feedback comes in a few forms when honing, Tactile of course tells a great story, once you are used to what is going on... Auditory is very important in the beginning, it will tell you very fast if your honing stroke is even close to being right..... The Visual with the ripple of water moving evenly as Croaker just mentioned is a great way to make sure your stroke is moving correctly across the hone....
Combine all this feedback and you are learning to hone for real.....:gl:
+1 on Glen. It takes all of the sounds, feels and visual changes to really know what is going on. Observe the feel, sound and visual changes and inspect the edge when you notice a change in any of them. Note the change in a log or mental note. Keep at this for several hundred razors and you will know what is going on without thinking about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
Good point about auditory cues: I think they match pretty close to my above tactile descriptions.
I never got much from watching the water/slurry ahead of the blade though. Too distracting from my touch, I suppose.:shrug: That and when I finish, I usually do it under a dribbling faucet, so that kind of negates the "wave".
How would you describe feedback you get from the steering system in your car as you drive on a winding mountain road? I don't know that I could and the same with a hone. I agree you get all kinds of cues; the sounds the razor makes, the feel passing over the hone. Each hone has an entirely different regime here and each razor too just like each car will be different and even the same car outfitted with different tires and shocks.
All I know is as the honing progresses there's this 6th sense that tells me its time to stop and check. Now if I could convert that to text I'd be a pretty smart guy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebigspendur
That's why honing is an art, not a science. Try asking Picasso or Dali, or Kandinsky how they painted so well...er, build a time machine and do that.
When honing on the nortons, I notice a definite change of feel when the blade is progressing along the particular grits. When I first begin on the 4000 it is slightly louder when honing on it, and I feel ever so slightly a grittier sensation. But after more strokes, it really seems to smooth out (I am rinsing the surface often, so it has nothing to do with swarf building) and honing on it seems quieter. On the norton 8000, I really get the sensation of suction when the blade has progressed on it. I liken honing on an 8000 when the blade is ready to honing on honey.
The coticule gives me an interesting feel too. The more the edge progresses along on it the more glassy it feels, like there's absolutely no resistence.
The thuringian I haven't noticed that much of feedback. But I've also only ever used it following a coticule, so the edges are plenty smoothed out by that point. I'm sure if I were to raise a slurry to do more aggressive work on my thuringian(s) I would notice changes in feedback. But I don't use it for that purpose, so it doesn't really pertain to my honing progression.
My findings are obviously extremely subjective and are my personal interpretations of what I feel. Others are likely to feel/hear different results on the same stones. But I would have to agree completely that different hones give different feedback as you progress along them, and my experience is limited to both the number of razors I've honed and to the variety of stones that I've used.
I may only have a few stones and a few razors, but I've gotten great results off the few stones with my razors. I think getting to know your hones is really important, and how they perform and feel while honing. I feel as if I understand my stones, enough that I'm pleased with the results that they're giving me. So that's all that's important to me. :D
When I first started using the Norton 4/8K it would whisper to me:
"You haven't got a clue what your doing, do ya?"
The feedback is now much more constructive.
:nj AFDavis11 thats a good one!
StraightRazorDave I do not use Nortons but I've noticed just about the same on other hones and agree completely on less feedback with higher grits.
Drag is the perfect word to use!
I never really knew what feedback felt like until I used one of the Naniwa Superstones, it's like using a Latigo strop....and that's the 12k....Considering the high grit, compared to other similar hones, I think these Naniwa's give the best feedback....
Quote:
Originally Posted by AFDavis11
:rock::rofl2::rofl2::rofl2::rofl2:
OK Now that was freaking funny.... Thanks for the chuckle Alan
Dude, all my hones are in drag.................:shrug:Quote:
Originally Posted by zib
They masquerade as each other to try to confuse me..........
When they start saying "Come in Tokyo"........I'm givin' up the sport.........
Lynn
yeah Lynn, but you must agree, the one in pink takes the cake :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynn