2 Case Studies--Help Me Learn.

OK, so in trying to develop my honing skills, I am having some trouble interpreting and reacting to my shave tests. There are a couple of razors that I have that I would like specific advice addressing. Can you help?

my equipment: 1K diamond plate hone; 4K King Ceramic hone; BBW/Coticule combo; 12K Shapton Pro; Itsapeech Barber Hone; CrOx pasted paddle strop; Japanese Natural waterstone (Nakayama).

(I am very close to buying either a King 6K or a Kitayama 8K as part of my intensive HAD treatment...so let me know if you think that would help!;) )

Razor 1.
A recent acquisition, well maintained and used. It has apparently been maintained on a Japanese Natural until now. Tests: HHT cuts with a pop. Shave: it cuts with no harshness on the skin, but there is a definite "pulling" sensation. On tougher hair, it reaches the point of discomfort.

My interpretation: the edge needs more keenness; it has perhaps been maintained but nor hones for a long time, and the bevel has become blunted. Am I close? Dead wrong?

How do I address this? Should I drop down to a 4K to re-establish the sharpness? a 1k to reset the bevel? Or give it a lot of laps on a finisher to see if keenness pops up? (I don't want to experiment with this one too much--it's a special one.)

Razor 2.
This is an Auction acquisition. I brought it up from a breadknife, Ik bevel set till it popped hairs at the base, 4K king stone till the bevel was smooth under magnification then Coticule with water to polish and 12K to finish. CrOx strop then clean leather and shaved.
Test results: HHT cuts with hardly a pop. It shaved, but not smoothly. No tugging, but it felt "harsh" on the skin, and left some burn. The shave was uneven with lots of stubble left. I gave it 40 laps on the Nakayama, and shaved again.
Results: Smooth shave, cut well and left few whiskers, but still felt harsh. Lots of micro-nicking.

Interpretation: Overhoned edge, wire edge broken off but not completely smoother out, causing a rough shave. Yes? No? Maybe?

Any advice you give would be greatly appreciated.

Best,
Jim

I like Bart's suggestion to drag the edge over a glass to dull it, and start bevel setting from there. Takes all of the guesswork out of when you get back to a corrrectly set bevel, since a convex bevel can still shave hair.

You can also use the magic marker test to check that the hone is making clean contact across the bevel at all points.

-Chief

Hey Jim,

Interesting cases! I'll give you a few thoughts, but I'd
wait to hear from the 1000+ honers before taking
these to the stones ;)

1. This sounds like a razor that's almost there, and I
would say you don't want to do anything dramatic --
yet. I would do 10 passes on the 12k and finish on
the Nakayama, then see where you're at. My gut feel
is that the 4k is unnecessary here since it is already
shaving at a reasonable level.

2. To me, it sounds like the 1k or 4k striations are
still present on the blade, and need to be polished
out. The best tool for the job here would be a fast
cutting 8k, but you could do more laps on the BBW
and coticule with a light slurry before moving on to
the 12k and the Nakayama.

:gl:

- Scott

It would seem to me that the coticule combo should fill the gap between the 4k and 12k if it is of a good size like 6" long or better. The length making it easier to use IME. Then again a new Kitiyama in 8K would be another arrow in the quiver and might fit nicely between the fore mentioned grits.

I have noticed that on razors that I had to breadknife to remove chips I had to do a lot more work to get them back to a nice edge. Even after I got them shaving I still had to go back and reset the bevel. On one in particular I received it with a bad frown and had to do the breadknifing. I used 1 layer of tape throughout the process.

Later Glen posted his method of 3 layers to get down to a bevel followed by one layer to take it down further. I had gotten the razor shaving with the 1 layer but never to my liking. I took it back to the DMT 1200 with Glen's suggested method and started over. I finally got it to a uniformly flat rather than convex bevel and it is much improved.

As far as razor 1 I would take another look at it under magnification and make sure the bevel is uniform from the edge tp the top of the bevel and that it is the same color reflection of light with a single plane. If it is more than one color it is uneven as Randydance told me here. If needed reset until it is as above. One way or the other I would do a conservative pyramid with the 4k and the coticule (yellow) with water only and see how it shaved. Hope some of this blather I just typed helps you out. :)

Thanks very much for your advice, guys. This is the kind of specifics I was looking for.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

It would seem to me that the coticule combo should fill the gap between the 4k and 12k if it is of a good size like 6" long or better. The length making it easier to use IME. Then again a new Kitiyama in 8K would be another arrow in the quiver and might fit nicely between the fore mentioned grits.

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See Jimmy, I KNEW I could count on you! One vote for Kitayama! Yay! **EDIT** My Coti is right at 6x1.5 inches.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

I have noticed that on razors that I had to breadknife to remove chips I had to do a lot more work to get them back to a nice edge. Even after I got them shaving I still had to go back and reset the bevel. On one in particular I received it with a bad frown and had to do the breadknifing. I used 1 layer of tape throughout the process.

Later Glen posted his method of 3 layers to get down to a bevel followed by one layer to take it down further. I had gotten the razor shaving with the 1 layer but never to my liking. I took it back to the DMT 1200 with Glen's suggested method and started over. I finally got it to a uniformly flat rather than convex bevel and it is much improved.

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I did actually use Glen's method from the wiki, I should have said. But I'll probably have to go back. My 1k plate isn't as good as a DMT, I'm sure, but it's decent...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

As far as razor 1 I would take another look at it under magnification and make sure the bevel is uniform from the edge tp the top of the bevel and that it is the same color reflection of light with a single plane. If it is more than one color it is uneven as Randydance told me here. If needed reset until it is as above. One way or the other I would do a conservative pyramid with the 4k and the coticule (yellow) with water only and see how it shaved. Hope some of this blather I just typed helps you out. :)

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That helps a bunch. Like I said, specifics are good. When using a pyramid with a Coti, should I up the stroke count a bit to account for the slowness? Or just treat it like an 8K water stone?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JimR

That helps a bunch. Like I said, specifics are good. When using a pyramid with a Coti, should I up the stroke count a bit to account for the slowness? Or just treat it like an 8K water stone?

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I would start with treating it as an 8k and see how that works. You can always add more laps. As you know some cut faster then others. If you 'know' the stone's cutting speed proceed accordingly. Remember what Bart said on watching how fast the slurry turns dark. On a fast cutter it will be changing color more quickly. Not suggesting you use slurry in the pyramid, only that you can gauge the cutting speed by that characteristic. Perhaps the 8k Kitiyama is a good idea. :p

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

I would start with treating it as an 8k and see how that works. You can always add more laps. As you know some cut faster then others. If you 'know' the stone's cutting speed proceed accordingly. Remember what Bart said on watching how fast the slurry turns dark. On a fast cutter it will be changing color more quickly. Not suggesting you use slurry in the pyramid, only that you can gauge the cutting speed by that characteristic. Perhaps the 8k Kitiyama is a good idea. :p

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I like the cut of your jib, sir!:D And you got a good name, too. ;)

OK, I'll try the coticule (oh how I suffer!) and see if it works. If, for some reason, it DOESN'T work, then perhaps I'll be forced to try another hone! :p

In all seriousness, I think I got a "medium" cutter. Compared to Bart's pics, my slurry didn't darken as fast as his fast cutter, but it wasn't too far off. It's good to know that the pyramid can be adapted to other stones, the wiki pretty much says it's for Norton 4K/8K only...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JimR

I like the cut of your jib, sir!:D And you got a good name, too. ;)

OK, I'll try the coticule (oh how I suffer!) and see if it works. If, for some reason, it DOESN'T work, then perhaps I'll be forced to try another hone! :p

In all seriousness, I think I got a "medium" cutter. Compared to Bart's pics, my slurry didn't darken as fast as his fast cutter, but it wasn't too far off. It's good to know that the pyramid can be adapted to other stones, the wiki pretty much says it's for Norton 4K/8K only...

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While the pyramid is usually associated with the Norton brand stones I have done them with Shaptons with some success. I have also experimented with doing something similar with different color labeled Eschers. That is still a work in progress. Any of this stuff is trial and error. Look at AF Davis's recent post.... who would have thought that the graphite from a no.2 pencil would be a good agent for getting an edge sharper. Experimenting with new combinations is interesting and may be rewarding.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

While the pyramid is usually associated with the Norton brand stones I have done them with Shaptons with some success. I have also experimented with doing something similar with different color labeled Eschers. That is still a work in progress. Any of this stuff is trial and error. Look at AF Davis's recent post.... who would have thought that the graphite from a no.2 pencil would be a good agent for getting an edge sharper. Experimenting with new combinations is interesting and may be rewarding.

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Me too, Jimmy. I sometimes do a 4k/8k pyramid on
the Shapton GS stones to bring the razor up to full
sharpness if it isn't there with a normal progression.
I may have done a 8k/16k pyramid once before but
I don't find it as useful.

- Scott

oh hey, I stopped reading as soon as i heard your 1k isnt as good as DMT.

well if it is too far out of flat that could be messing things up a good deal.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kevint

oh hey, I stopped reading as soon as i heard your 1k isnt as good as DMT.

well if it is too far out of flat that could be messing things up a good deal.

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:hmmm:

It's flat enough to stick to a wet glass plate with no visible gaps. I don't believe that it has to be flatter than that. I'm sure when these razors were made they didn't worry about flatness measured in the tenths of microns.

And, of course, one of these razors has never seen the diamond plate.

Oh ok.

I guess it may be better than DMT for flat which certainly does show light under my straight edge. (do you know how small light can get/)

Should I say that no one gets flatness within tenths of microns? I'm not trying to be smart with you. The potential for error with your plate just seemed like a possibility.

There were of course people who never worried or were never informed on the need to maintain stones flat. We see it all the time in worn, contorted stones- how or why some conclude that they also got exemplary edges from those I do not know.

otherwise your analysis sounded pretty good to me. Just fix it:D:shrug:

Wooo HOOOO!!!!:y:y:y

Jimmy My man, your advice was spot on. I sent both these through just what you suggested

On razor 2, I went back to the 1K and made damn sure the bevel was set and even all along the blade--shaving hairs like a madman. Took forever, but there you go. Then I smoothed it out and refined it a little on my Superstone 2K and then went to the aggressive pyramid. Finished on Shapton 12K, Nakayama and Crox, and shaved this morning--
GREAT! A great, great shave test. Not worldclass, but no pull and no irritation. Truly gratifying.

Razor 1 got the conservative pyramid with my King 4k and 8K superstone,, and the same finishing as razor 2. Shave test? Freaking AWESOME. This is very close to the best edge I've felt yet...

My wife was shocked at how smooth my shave was this morning. My recent test shaves haven't been the best, but today is BBS all the way.

Man, that's some satisfaction!

Great to hear it Jim! :rock:

- Scott