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I have been straight shavnig for about 6-7 months now, and a while ago I had purchased a Norton 4k/8k to learn to hone. Currently I'm doing fine with this and am getting comfortable shaves, however I would like it to be smoother. As such I want to purchase a finishing hone. I am looking at the Shapton 16k, but I don't know if I can go right from an 8k Norton to a 16k Shapton, or if I will need a grit somewhere in the middle. Any suggestions?
I use a Chinese 12K on occasion. I think you could go to 16K. Either way you're increasing your stroke count and using a slow/slower hone. I believe you'll save money with a 12K Chinese.
I don't know of any reason why you can't go to the 16k shapton. I use a 12k naniwa in my arsonal of stones but don't seem to need it when doing a full hoaning. I get it out to touch up a blade that can't seem to get a smooth edge after going from chromium oxide to linen to leather. At that point I will give the blade 10 or 15 strokes on the 12k then work it on the pasted strop the linen and then the leather. I tried the 12k twice after the 8k and didn't seem to feel any difference in the finish after shaving with it, but that's just mho. For me the smoothness seems to come from the stropping sequence and not the hoaning alone.
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According to Shapton USA doubling the grit size is the way to go when moving up in the progression. Then again you would pay substantially less for the Chinese 12K or the Naniwa 12K than for the glass stone. Many members here use the 12 to follow the 8 with satisfactory results.
I'm very negative towards the Chinese 12K. It's so hard, it took hours and hours of backbreaking work to lap it and the results didn't justify the effort. I also like to hold the hone in my hand and the 12K is just too heavy. Why don't you make your life easy by using some chromium oxide on a paddle strop? I think you'll get your biggest bang for the buck that way.
I'm not commenting on the Shapton because I don't have one.
With the chinese 12k it's a "Pay me now or pay me later" type of dilemma. Some people have a hard time flattening them, as Chimensch did, and others find it to take a while, but not be so bad, as I did. When I first got my chinese 12k I flattened it on a granite tile with wet/dry sandpaper, starting with a coarse grit first then progressing through a finer grit. No real need to go beyond 1000 on the 12k in my book.
I have since flattened the other side and edges with DMT diamond stones, and that went reasonably well for me.
So, it is hard(er) to flatten, but the upside of the 12k is that it's so hard that it doesn't need flattening for quite a while. In the real world this just means that you don't have to whip out your flattening materials when you just want a routine maintenance touch up on a razor.
On many of my razors, the 12k leaves a great edge if you use good form and enough strokes. On some of my razors I don't even feel the need to go to chromium oxide or a finer stone - the resultant shave is very smooth and comfortable. On others, the 12k needs a few laps on chromium oxide, but then the shave is super smooth.
I have a shapton 16k and really enjoy it, but if I only had a chinese 12k to finish on, I don't think that I'd be upset about that.
Concerning the Norton 8k--> shapton 16k progression: absolutely. Honestly, you could go from the 4k to 16k if you wanted to, it would just take quite a few more strokes. Heck, for that matter you can take a rectangular bar of heat treated steel and MAKE a wedge straight razor on the 16k if you had enough time (and enough 16k!). It just takes more strokes (and time).
The reason we use stones in the progressions we do is all about the balancing of several factors: hone wear rate, speed of sharpening, ease of achieving desired results, etc.
There's a guy on knifeforums who has been told that you can't go from a DMT 325 straight to a King 6000. He made a video of it, and it worked great. Here it is.
I'm voting coticule
I do like the 16k idea though
yeah, go for that
I appreciate all the feedback. I don't really have an issue with the Shapton costing more money than the Chinese 12k. I don't mind spending the money on somehting that is worth it.
Do I still have to lap the Shapton at all, if so, what is the best way to do this. I don't currently have a lapping stone mind you, I lapped my Norton with sand paper on a flat tile and it works great.
You will most likely have to lap the Shapton, as they do not reportedly come perfectly flat. If you're comfortable lapping the Nortons with sandpaper on a tile the Shapton will be the exact same. IIRC, the Shapton site recommends 600 grit wet/dry, or the hugely expensive lapping plate, the GDLP....Quote:
Originally Posted by 8BallAce
For lapping hones a DMT D8C continuous diamond plate is a mighty handy thing to have around.
Hi guys, I'm a newbie to the forum, but I've been using a straight razor for about 5 years now.
I have used the Norton 220, 1,000, 4,000 and 8K stones, and I have used the Shapton Glass 16K. (I currently use the Shapton Glass 2K, 4K, 16K, 30K and then strop with a .50 micron diamond paste.)
I think the jump form the Norton to the 16K Shapton is acceptable. The only issue is the relative softness of the Norton stones, which means they wear faster. The glass stones wear relatively quickly compared to the pros, but not nearly as fast as the Nortons - especially if you have the Norton 4000 stone (white) - that one is like soft butter. As long as you lap all of your stones, then jumping around will be much easier, and more productive.
I sharpen a lot of things, not just my razors, so I am always lapping. I don't recall of the galss stones are truly flat or not from the factory. I would think that they are. I know the pros are. There is a protective coating that may turn black when you first use the stones, but it doesn't interfere with sharpening.
The DGLP is actually a "cheaper" lapping plate then the DRLP! I use the DGLP because it is light weight and reliable. However, you can use DMT stones/plates or even finer grit stones to lap. Whatever works. If you only sharpen your razor, you really don't need such luxury, but it is nice:)
BTY, If anyone has questions about the Shapton pro or glass, I am happy to answer as best I can. I have "less" experience when it come to straight razor sharpening, so I am looking forward to learning and sharing information here.
Also, I'm a Shapton dealer, so I apoligize in advance if I seem a little pro-Shapton:rock:
What is the advantage of the pro stones over the glass, or vice versa?Quote:
Originally Posted by jendeindustries
Also, although I have no problem picking up a Shapton, the lapping plate is a little out of my price range right now, would it harm the stone to lap it with sand paper, if not, which grit would you suggest? I think I am currently using 400 grit to lap my Norton.
Which of these would you use to lap a hone, such as a Shapton, or would you just sharpen your razor on this?Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyHAD
In general, the Shapton Professional series are harder than the Glass Stone series. That means the pro stones wear slower than the glass. Depending on your application though, both series have their advantages and disadvantages (like any other product).
IMPO, For straight razors, I think the glass stones may be more beneficial overall because they "give" a little easier. Stropping produces a rounded over, or slightly convex edge, since the glass stones wear faster, they will conform to the curvature of the rounded over edge more readily as the stone dips from use. In simpler terms, the stone conforms to the knife. This makes sharpening faster and reduces wear on the knife. It also makes maintenance easier.
The pro stones will remove metal until the bevel or the edge is straight. In other words, the hardness of the pros make the knife conform to the stone. On the positive side, you won't need as much maintenance as the glass, and if your edge is misshaped, you would want the pros to reestablish a straighter edge more quickly. If you want to reduce the angle of the edge by thinning out the spine, the pros are also better suited for this.
As for the results, they are pretty much the same for both series, they just get there a little differently. Shaptons work on the premise of scratching the surface of the metal. The coarse stones produce large scratches that remove the metal, and the medium and fine stones work to add more scratches that are more uniform and densely packed, so that they form a mirror finish. Norton, and many other stones rely on softer materials that "polish" the surface of the blade so that it produces a mirror finish.
If you work a conventional #2000 grit water stone long enough, you will eventually get a mirror finish. Shapton #2000 will never produce a mirror. They are designed to put their scratches on the blade, and you must then go to the next level up. Mirror begins at #4,000 grit on the Shaptons, BTW.
Lapping with sandpaper is possible. You can even use higher grits, like 1000 grit for the Norton 8000 and Shapton 16K. If you are only sharpening your razor, as long as it works in a timely fashion for you, it is OK. If you also use the stones to sharpen kitchen knives or anything else, sandpaper may be a bit on the slow side compared to other lapping methods.
Shapton has just come out with a new compact lapping plate that is smaller than the original one and comes with coarse and medium powders. It's a little cheaper ($179.00 I think) I don't have them yet, but I have ordered them. It is a little more economical, and can lap any brand of water stones.
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