After nakayama, to paste or not to paste? (And mini nakayama review)

So ever since I got my nakayama, I have been forgoing my usual routine of hitting the pastes on my pasted balsa wood paddle strops because I've heard how everyone doesn't feel the need for the paste anymore, and because I wanted to evaluate exactly how my nakayama works for me as the final touch. My normal routine before the nakayama was to hit the hand american chromium oxide paddle, and then the red paste from karakoup1 in the classifieds which is claimed to be < 0.5 micron and my findings seem to agree with that claim.

Anyway, in the scope, the nakayama polishes like no other. The polish it gives is at least as good as the red paste, which I've found to polish finer/better than the green hand american CrOx. So the nakayama is certainly polishing at a very fine/high grit.

Let me preface the rest by saying that I've only been honing for 4 months or so and I'm no pro. I'm pretty confident in my ability, and I think my results are great, but I know I have plenty more to learn. So, results may vary based on honing ability.

The shaves straight off the nakayama, for me, are the best I've had straight off of a stone, but didn't feel as sharp as I was used to coming off the pastes. The sharpness felt more like that of a coticule. I liken the nakayama, in my head, to a "super coticule" of sorts, if that makes any sense. The feel of the edge is similar to a coticule, but in a bit sharper, bit smoother kind of way. This is to say I find the nakayama edge (at least mine) to be more like the coticule, than say an escher or chinese 12k.

Now, to the point of my post. This weekend I was finally satisfied that every razor I'd finished on the nakayama shaved the same way with the same feel, so I was confident I'd evaluated the nakayama to my liking, so I decided what the heck and hit the pastes with my normal routine, which is 15x CrOx with light/moderate pressure followed by 5x CrOx lightening the pressure each stroke until the last which is SUPER light. Then I followed with the red paste, same thing, only with this one I do 12x at first, then 3x lightening. Maybe too many pasted strokes overall, but I've experimented a bit, and this is what seems to work nicely for me. I want to mention too that I find the balsa paddle strops to work better than hanging pasted strops. At least, for me.

So, I stropped up and shaved.

WOW! What a difference. I've now tried this on two razors and the difference for both is the same and is nothing short of incredible. They are now two of my best shaving razors, but were previously middle of the pack. My favorite final edge combination so far.

Better than any other stone alone or followed by paste, and IMO, better than just the nakayama edge. It took the sharpness to a whole different level, and the smoothness came along for the ride.

Now, I honestly don't know where I stand on the HHT as far as how relevant it is, but I've not yet got an edge off the nakayama to pop hairs using the HHT. After the pastes, though, it popped hairs at every point, and as I mentioned it was noticeably sharper during the shave.

I think somehow the backhoning stroke (ie stropping), while still sharpening (ie with paste), somehow makes the edge sharper than you can get with the normal (forward) honing stroke. And I find this sharper edge to be to my liking. I can totally see how it's not for everyone, though. It is much easier, IMO, to get irritation with such an edge, because it is not forgiving to any extra pressure or lazy blade angles / technique.

I'm now kind of curious about this whole backhoning thing and have a couple other experiments planned, such as stropping/backhoning on the nakayama for a few strokes as a finishing move, to see how this fares.

So, sorry for the long read, but does anyone else care to comment on their experience with the nakayama and pastes? The difference for me with the pastes couldn't be more night and day. When I read that people didn't feel the need for pastes anymore, I wasn't sure if they just liked the plain nakayama edge better than adding pastes (I could understand this) or if they didn't/couldn't really notice the difference after hitting the pastes (I couldn't understand this). If people just can't feel the difference, then I'm pretty confused. Either my honing technique is not up to par, or somehow my nakayama polishes at a high grit but doesn't leave the same edge as other people's nakayamas? Either way, I'm still thrilled, because I've discovered a new holy grail in my honing journey.

I can't comment on the nakayama part because I don't have one but I do have an idea of what is happening with the pastes. Honing (edge leading) carries the removed metal behind the edge while stropping (edge trailing) carries the removed metal in front of the edge, tending to extend it (this was explained in the famous Verhoeven paper). This results in a thinner, sharper, less durable edge. The reason I stopped using pastes is that the edge doesn't last as long and the purpose of going to finer stones is to get a sharper, smoother edge that is more durable. So, I think that, by using the paste, you are undoing the benefit of the stone unless you don't mind honing and stropping more often.

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Originally Posted by pjrage

So ever since I got my nakayama,

Either my honing technique is not up to par, or somehow my nakayama polishes at a high grit but doesn't leave the same edge as other people's nakayamas? Either way, I'm still thrilled, because I've discovered a new holy grail in my honing journey.

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It is honing. you will get there be patient.Now you have too many hones and no time to test them all.Every hone takes time to learn them. gl

Thanks for the mini Nak review and the results of your paste experiments. Just to prove to myself that I can I still like to get it off of the hone/strop without resorting to paste. It seems now that I can 95% of the time but I'm intrigued with the results of the pastes. I'm near the point where I wouldn't feel I was "cheating" to use the pastes.

The fact that honemiesters such as Lynn use it was immaterial to me as there is no question that they have the skill. I liken it to a bike trail I frequently ride. When I was starting out I had to take every obstacle on the trail no matter how small. Even those were sort of a challenge to me. Now I can bypass the small stuff because there is no longer a challenge in them. So it is with using pastes for me. I know I can get the razor sharp with the stone so I can use the paste and know that I am not making up for a lack of skill.

The question of whether or not paste use degrades the integrity of the edge was an issue for me too. I don't want to put words in his mouth and then quote him but I seem to recall mparker posting that after substantial testing he found that using paste did not affect the longevity of the edge?

Thanks for the taking the time to post your experiment.

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Originally Posted by pjrage

Now, I honestly don't know where I stand on the HHT as far as how relevant it is, but I've not yet got an edge off the nakayama to pop hairs using the HHT. After the pastes, though, it popped hairs at every point, and as I mentioned it was noticeably sharper during the shave.

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I haven't had my Nakayama more than 6/7 months, so I haven't honed a big number of razors on it, but for me the hair pops very easily after the Nakayama, and the razors feels very sharp during the shave and compared to the edges I get with paste I don't feel any big differences so I've stopped pasting edges coming of the Nakayama, the only razor I curently use paste on is a Williams in S30V, where I find the ChromOx to do a great job.

I agree that there is some stigma about pastes that makes it feel like cheating. Especially with the nakayama, it is hard to get over that stigma. At least, it was/is for me. The nakayama is supposed to be (maybe it is?) the cat's meow. The best finishing hone that we know of. Or at least, on a very short list of best finishing hones. This is the exact reason I didn't want to use paste. And also the reason I was a little hestitant to post anything other than the nakayama leaves an edge so incredible it can hardly be believed. I do think it polishes on a whole different level as I mentioned, but the edge itself, in terms of what I like (very very sharp blade) leaves me something to be desired. Perhaps it is still my honing ability, which is why I mentioned that. Sham, you may be right. Maybe in a year I'll have different thoughts. Either way, I tried all different things as far as pressure, angle, number of strokes, etc, and the end result always shaved the same and looked the same in the scope :shrug: Just for a frame of reference, Sham, when you finish a razor on your nakayama, if you then take it to a pasted paddle strop, do you notice any difference? Or is there no difference at all? If there IS a difference and you just don't like it or find it necessary, then maybe this is just a preference thing?

I'm growing confident enough in my honing abilities that I'm starting to consider sending out a handful of blades to different honemeisters, etc, to have them finish the blades for me using their favorite setup. I might send them already sharpened to how I like them to see what they think as well. I would want to do this to see what other people think the perfect edge is and what they like in a final edge. I have a feeling that at least some of them would come back not to my liking. That is to say that of course I would find them shave ready, etc, but just not exactly what I like. I'm beginning to think more and more that the final edge is a very personal thing and there's no "right" answer. Has anyone actually run any sort of "experiment" like this, were you see how you like the edge from different honemeisters? I can't imagine they all feel exactly the same? Do you like some of them better than others? Do you prefer your own edges? Were there some you found to be a bit uncomfortable? Were some so good that you strive every honing to replicate it to no avail? You don't have to name names of honemeister, I'm just curious in general. I guess it's really probably a matter of what you're used to also.

Anyway, in the long run I know I'm going to paste or not depending on the results and not really care about the stigma.. only what gives the best shaves for me, but in the short term I can't help but wonder if there's something to be said for loving the pasted finish so much (ie that it truly is only a matter of my honing ability).

At this moment in time, the bottom line is that the best possible edge I've managed to put on a razor, IMO, comes from finishing with a nakayama and then hitting the pastes.

I have no idea how long the pasted edge will last? It's not as big of a concern to me as having the perfect shave though, so even if I have to touch them up once every 5 shaves or whatever, that's no biggie.

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Originally Posted by bjorn

Thanks for the taking the time to post your experiment.



I haven't had my Nakayama more than 6/7 months, so I haven't honed a big number of razors on it, but for me the hair pops very easily after the Nakayama, and the razors feels very sharp during the shave and compared to the edges I get with paste I don't feel any big differences so I've stopped pasting edges coming of the Nakayama, the only razor I curently use paste on is a Williams in S30V, where I find the ChromOx to do a great job.

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Just to clarify my take on the HHT and popping hairs. After the nakayama, the edge will pop arm/leg hairs incredibly easily. It's incredible. However, the edge is grabby on the face during the shave, the same way it is for a coticule, but not nearly as bad. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, as I said, some people might prefer this kind of edge.

When I use the pastes, it completely eliminates any grabbiness and the blade just slides effortlessly, almost as if it would feel using the rounded spine instead of the blade. The end result of a single pass is the same amount of hair removed pre/post paste, it's only a difference in the feel.

Have you tried using plain newspaper after the nakayama? This was the combination that gave me the best results, from both the nakayama or shapton 30k.

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Originally Posted by pjrage

what I like (very very sharp blade) leaves me something to be desired.

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Nakayama will give to you such edge.

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Originally Posted by pjrage

consider sending out a handful of blades to different honemeisters, .

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Great idea but just send only 1 person -Lynn
then you should be in good condition.