I think I have a double bevel...

...but not sure.

I was honing up a razor and noticed that as I moved from 4k to 12k to pastes, the scratch marks kept getting finer and finer, and I ended with a mirror finish.....but only at the portion closest to edge of the blade. The mirror finish ran all the way from heet to toe; however, there was also a portion of the blade farther up the face of the blade that still had thicker scratch marks, that did not get that mirror finish (in fact, I don't think they got much finer as I went through my progression).

Is it possible that the person before me honed it using tape on the spine, and b/c I am not taping the spine, I am not smoothing out the previous owner's scratch marks? Maybe he used tape, and b/c I'm not, I am the one actually creating the 2nd bevel?

If so, how best to remedy the situation? I would rather not have to use tape every time I go to the hones....if that is the case, should I take the blade to a 1k stone and establish a new bevel using no tape - then just use my normal progression and get a mirror finish on the whole face of the bevel?

any help would be great...thanks, guys!

Bart (haven't seen him around in a while) had great advice when honing a razor-- start by lightly dragging the razor along a glass bottle to dull the edge. Now, it won't shave arm hair. Start to reset the bevel. Once the edge starts to shave arm hair again, then you know you have a good bevel and are ready to refine the edge. Takes all the guesswork out of it... if you had a double-bevel, it wouldn't start to shave arm hair until you removed it.

-Chief

then I'm not sure what to think, b/c I am able to get the razor to shave arm hair and my face quite comfortably.....but those darn scratch marks above the mirrored finish still remain...what gives?

actually the tape increases the bevel angle, so the scratch marks you are seeing should be from a lower angle, i.e. negative tape if you will :)
most likely it's from using pressure, or sometimes abrasives can creep upwards and leave scratch marks beyond the bevel.

i would not worry about it

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Originally Posted by Razorburne

then I'm not sure what to think, b/c I am able to get the razor to shave arm hair and my face quite comfortably.....but those darn scratch marks above the mirrored finish still remain...what gives?

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You do probably have a double bevel. It will shave arm hair. But when you try to refine the edge, you will only be refining the first bevel (the second bevel still works, but you are not refining it...). Unless you intentinally dull the edge, you won't know when you've reset the double bevel into a fresh single bevel.

-Chief

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Originally Posted by gugi

actually the tape increases the bevel angle, so the scratch marks you are seeing should be from a lower angle, i.e. negative tape if you will :)
most likely it's from using pressure, or sometimes abrasives can creep upwards and leave scratch marks beyond the bevel.

i would not worry about it

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If what your saying is that the scratch marks are above the bevel, ie towards the spine side, not the edge side; then no, you do not have a double bevel and I agree with Gugi. If I use DMT's to reset an edge I get scratch marks above the bevel. Its annoying and why I've stopped using them for the most part. Even the EF leaves scratch marks above the bevel sometimes. Very unsightly.

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Originally Posted by Leighton

If what your saying is that the scratch marks are above the bevel, ie towards the spine side, not the edge side; then no, you do not have a double bevel and I agree with Gugi. If I use DMT's to reset an edge I get scratch marks above the bevel. Its annoying and why I've stopped using them for the most part. Even the EF leaves scratch marks above the bevel sometimes. Very unsightly.

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That's it exactly...the scratch marks which don't polish out are "above" the bevel - meaning in between the portion of blade that does in fact polish up (which is along the actual edge of the blade) and the spine. I guess that means it's ok, b/c it's sharpening up and shaving...just not aesthetically pleasing...annoying, but good to know.

are you talking about those kinda scratches that happen when you over run the end of the stone or you are seeing a separation occurring within the bounds of the bevel?

I think Leighton is referring to scratch lines that extend out from the bevel itself into the grind/belly of the razor, really prone to happen on wedges especially, and are usually long (in comparison to the bevel width). Is this right Leighton?

I think razorburne is referring to having a bevel where half of the bevel is polished, and the other half of the bevel looks like it was finished on a 1k or 4k or whatever it looks like. That is, when viewing the razor from 20 inches away, you can see a bevel. As you look closer, you realize that within this bevel, half of it is polished (lower half toward the edge) and the upper half (half on the spine side) is still coarse as if finished on a low grit. Is this right Razorburne?

If this is right, razorburne, then yes this is a double (or at least some kind of complex) bevel, but like gugi said, this result is usually caused by ADDING tape. When you add tape, you will be polishing the lower portion of the bevel (edge half) and the upper portion of the bevel will remain at whatever grit level you were on before you added the tape. If you didn't add tape then yeah it's kind of like the upper half of the bevel was set with negative tape, lol. There are probably a number of causes of this, but I'm not sure exactly what they could be. Possibly using too much pressure and/or torquing the edge into the hone too much? Maybe hones that are dished out a little? Either way, I wouldn't worry about it. When you really have to worry about it is when you have the opposite (upper half of the bevel is polished and lower edge half is not). If you really want to fix it, you can drop down to the 1k level (or extra time on the 4k level) and reset the bevel so that it's continuous throughout it's width. I'm not sure you'd notice much (if any) difference in the shaves, though.

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Originally Posted by pjrage

I think razorburne is referring to having a bevel where half of the bevel is polished, and the other half of the bevel looks like it was finished on a 1k or 4k or whatever it looks like. That is, when viewing the razor from 20 inches away, you can see a bevel. As you look closer, you realize that within this bevel, half of it is polished (lower half toward the edge) and the upper half (half on the spine side) is still coarse as if finished on a low grit. Is this right Razorburne?

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That is exactly right - that's what it looks like.

I guess the important part is that I am able to get it sharp and shave with it.

If I was going through the progression and it just wouldn't seem to get sharp at all, I suppose then I would be looking more into a double bevel, where establishing a new single bevel would be necessary, if in fact I didn't want to use tape to hone all the time....right? (and that could be done at 1k)?

FWIW...

Just for reference here, double bevels take about 20 laps on a Norton 4k to be done away with....

Adjust that as necessary for other hones...


Sorry slightly :OT

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

FWIW...

Just for reference here, double bevels take about 20 laps on a Norton 4k to be done away with....

Adjust that as necessary for other hones...


Sorry slightly :OT

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really? that's good to know...I figured it would take much more, or even a lower grit stone...thanks for the info

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

FWIW...

Just for reference here, double bevels take about 20 laps on a Norton 4k to be done away with....

Adjust that as necessary for other hones...


Sorry slightly :OT

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Does that hold true for wedges in your experience? Or when going from 1 layer to 0 layers?

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Originally Posted by Leighton

Does that hold true for wedges in your experience? Or when going from 1 layer to 0 layers?

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It works for any 1 layer bevel that I have run into... I have never seen a 2 layer bevel that I know of.....

Maybe the razor has been honed on a stone that wasn't properly lapped. A domed stone would have this effect.

I've seen this too (a bevel scratch pattern at a more acute angle than the razor grind). I was thinking it must have been done on a wheel. Perhaps by the manufacturer.

Regarding scratch marks "above" the bevel.

First off, I am referring to scratch marks which do not appear to be part of any remaining grinding or finishing marks from the original manufacturer.

I have seen marks like these on other razors. And there can be a number of reasons why they end up there.

1) The person used some sort of sandpaper for sharpening or reshaping on the front edge and it curled up and brushed the blade a bit further back than desired. (been there, done that :rant:)

2) Too much pressure was applied while honing a razor, especially deeply hollow ground ones with paper-thin cross-sections. The blades on these razors is so flexible that you can cause it to bend down and contact the stone more than it should. (been there, done that :rant:)

3) Sometimes one isn't paying attention while honing and accidently drags a blade off the honing stone (either the side or end of the stone), losing the full support so that the blade drops down brushing the surface of the hone. (been there, done that :rant:)

There could be other reasons besides these, but believe me, all of the above are possible and could potentially explain what you are seeing.

- Ignatz