Slurry on a touch-up hone?

I apologize if this has been brought up before, but my search of the forums didn’t turn up anything.

As I was working on lapping some of the razor hones I recently acquired, I realized I was basically building a slurry as I was flattening the stone.

I understand that all hones are different, but I began to wonder if anyone had finished a honing progression on a 4K, 8K or higher-grit stone, then worked up a slurry on something like a Swaty to put a final finish on a razor, similar to the use of a coticule. I understand that it’s not the way things are normally done - there’s plenty of finishing stones out there designed for such a task and razor hones are basically for touch-ups. However, being someone that doesn’t have an arsenal of stones to fall back on I’m looking at alternatives.

Would honing in such a manner tend to undo the work that was done on the previous stone, or is it possible that this could be something like a “poor man’s coticule” that would allow a budget-oriented person to start working with an alternative to high-grit stones without the investment normally required?

Feel free to shoot down the idea if it’s been tried and found to give poor results. It’ll save me some experimenting if that’s the case. On the other hand, there might be some people more experienced at honing out there who may want to give this a try as well and report results if it intrigues them.

Just trying to think outside the box for some ways to save cash.

Thanks,

- Mark (S-4-C)

Well we know that a swaty is not normally used a finishing stone but as a touch up hone… but suppose we get a cheap ($12) coticule rubbing stone and rub that on the swaty, the slurry (from the coticule) would cut quickly and brake down to finer grits and give a super fine finish.

Since you invited us to shoot down your idea...
:medvl:
In general, a slurry on a hone makes it cut faster and, at least in some instances, effectively makes the hone cut as if it has a more coarse grit. I'm not certain if this is true with a Swaty, as I have never tried to hone it with slurry, but if it does hold true like other hones with slurry, then you would not want a slurry because it would reduce the ability of the hone to polish. You can use the Swaty as a finishing/polishing hone after the 8k but I can't imagine any benefit to making it cut more coarsely than it does with normal use.

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Originally Posted by Utopian

Since you invited us to shoot down your idea...
:medvl:
In general, a slurry on a hone makes it cut faster and, at least in some instances, effectively makes the hone cut as if it has a more coarse grit. I'm not certain if this is true with a Swaty, as I have never tried to hone it with slurry, but if it does hold true like other hones with slurry, then you would not want a slurry because it would reduce the ability of the hone to polish. You can use the Swaty as a finishing/polishing hone after the 8k but I can't imagine any benefit to making it cut more coarsely than it does with normal use.

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+1 Wow thanks Ron for typing it so I didn't have to :)

I would however add I haven't tried it myself, so if you do, let everyone know for sure...

After re-reading yer post I realized that you might be asking something different, I did an experiment using the "One Coticule" honing method only using a Norton 8k instead of a Coticule...
Any stone that you can raise a slurry on that you can shave off of at it's highest grit state will work using this method....It is not consistant nor easy but it can be done
Hope that helps if that's what you were asking...

If you have an 8k or higher grit hone you can do well enough. Your problem may be why they invented pastes

Your question is a rational one but it overlooks the difference in the composition of the hones. We can do this with a Coticule,Eshcer,Norton,Shapton, Japanese, Chinese etc because the binder material that holds the abrasive is so much softer than the binder in the Swaty type hones which are a hard ceramic type. The Swaty binder will not easily change its texture, it will remains coarse much longer, but the aforementioned hones will have a much quicker change because of a softer binder material.

:)

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Originally Posted by Utopian

Since you invited us to shoot down your idea...
:medvl:
In general, a slurry on a hone makes it cut faster and, at least in some instances, effectively makes the hone cut as if it has a more coarse grit. I'm not certain if this is true with a Swaty, as I have never tried to hone it with slurry, but if it does hold true like other hones with slurry, then you would not want a slurry because it would reduce the ability of the hone to polish. You can use the Swaty as a finishing/polishing hone after the 8k but I can't imagine any benefit to making it cut more coarsely than it does with normal use.

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I may have to disagree...

A hone that naturally produce slurry will constantly have fresh grits coming into the slurry as you hone, so it may or may not cut finer than the stones natural grit.

However if the source of the slurry is from the swaty (or some other stone) then it would cut faster but would NOT cut like a courser hone because the slurry would brake down into smaller grits as you hone… Also because the swaty is hard there would no fresh grits coming into the slurry as you hone.

So slurry on a swaty would effectively cut faster and finer.

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Originally Posted by smythe

I may have to disagree...

A hone that naturally produce slurry will constantly have fresh grits coming into the slurry as you hone, so it may or may not cut finer than the stones natural grit.

However if the source of the slurry is from the swaty (or some other stone) then it would cut faster but would NOT cut like a courser hone because the slurry would brake down into smaller grits as you hone… Also because the swaty is hard there would no fresh grits coming into the slurry as you hone.

So slurry on a swaty would effectively cut faster and finer.

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I may have to disagree with your disagreement. I did consider that the slurry off of a Swaty might be different from that of a natural hone. I'm just not sure about the speed with which the slurry would break down. On an Escher or a Japanese hone, in theory, the slurry does break down and becomes more fine. I'm not sure of how the slurry of a Swaty behaves as I've never tested it. However, your point about the Swaty being hard and therefore not releasing "fresh grits" is no different than the behavior of some Japanese hones or the Chinese hone.

I've tested slurrys from several different water stones added to the surface of my Spyderco UF ceramic stone. (I think the UF is similar to a barber hone.)

Adding slurry to the UF really kicks up the cutting speed. The added slurry turns black fairly quickly. So for instance, adding slurry from a Naniwa 12K to the UF will result in a cutting rate that is faster than a clean UF and faster than the 12K Naniwa as well. So the method may be useful as a substitute for a coarser hone.

However, my experience has been that the faster cutting rate comes at the expense of sharpness, as would be expected. So the resultant edge is not as sharp as what I could get by going straight to the original 12K. Also, I wasn't able to gain anything by using a diluting process with the slurry.

(A similar idea is to add a little CrO to the UF surface or even give it a shot of diamond spray. I've dabbled with this, but not enough to draw conclusions.)

Reading through the "One Coticule" honing process probably prompted the thoughts that caused me to post this thread.

I admit that I had hoped to read differing opinions on this idea in order to understand the potential benefits and pitfalls associated with attempting such a thing. I'm glad to see that no comments have begin with :rant: "Blasphemy!" or the like, and have been posted in a constructive way. Thanks for that.

I had wondered if the binder material would continue to break down into smaller, finer grits as noted by Smythe, but I have no experience to fall back on. Once the idea hit me I really began to wonder if it's possible to create a honing medium on a progressively finer surface (grit?) by diluting a slurry created by a barber hone. If so, they are traditionally much cheaper easier to come by than a coticule or escher.

I had also hoped that someone had already conducted such an experiment so a definitive answer could be provided. Since I've only just begun to get my hands on hones and have little to no experience, I am confident that any of my personal findings would be suspect because I don't have anything with which to compare the results.

When it comes to honing I have no ego to bruise, so I welcome all feedback, whether good or bad. I may try this out on a beater blade as I learn to hone simply to see what happens. I have no idea what to expect, but I hope that it's possible to use these hones for something other than a finisher, if for no other reason than to save money on an Escher / Thuringian / Naniwa / etc. On the other hand, I don't own these stones anyway, so I can't perform a side-to-side comparison.

If this simply seems like nonsense, please excuse the ramblings of a newb that needs more experience with the hones.

Thanks,

- Mark (S-4-C)

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Originally Posted by Utopian

I may have to disagree with your disagreement. I did consider that the slurry off of a Swaty might be different from that of a natural hone. I'm just not sure about the speed with which the slurry would break down. On an Escher or a Japanese hone, in theory, the slurry does break down and becomes more fine. I'm not sure of how the slurry of a Swaty behaves as I've never tested it. However, your point about the Swaty being hard and therefore not releasing "fresh grits" is no different than the behavior of some Japanese hones or the Chinese hone.

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The swaty (and most barber hones) is classified as hard because the binder is “relatively” harder than a “soft” stone; however you must bear in mind that the binder is softer than the abrasive, does not take part in the abrasive action and does not prevent the abrasive from braking down finer. When the abrasive is released into the slurry, the abrasive will break down while at the same time cutting the steel.
The abrasive in the Swaty is a mix of aluminum oxide and iron oxide, both will brake down and become finer as a result of mechanical action such as honing.

Any “hard” stone will behave the same way, it is the binder that holds the abrasive more firmly then a “soft” hone.

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Originally Posted by matt321

I've tested slurrys from several different water stones added to the surface of my Spyderco UF ceramic stone. (I think the UF is similar to a barber hone.)

Adding slurry to the UF really kicks up the cutting speed. The added slurry turns black fairly quickly. So for instance, adding slurry from a Naniwa 12K to the UF will result in a cutting rate that is faster than a clean UF and faster than the 12K Naniwa as well. So the method may be useful as a substitute for a coarser hone.

However, my experience has been that the faster cutting rate comes at the expense of sharpness, as would be expected. So the resultant edge is not as sharp as what I could get by going straight to the original 12K. Also, I wasn't able to gain anything by using a diluting process with the slurry.

(A similar idea is to add a little CrO to the UF surface or even give it a shot of diamond spray. I've dabbled with this, but not enough to draw conclusions.)

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After reading your post, one could say your statement; “So the method may be useful as a substitute for a coarser hone.” is misleading… But don’t take this the wrong way because I understand you are relating your experience... and that’s good, after all that’s what this forum is about… sharing experiences.

So, misleading or not, please let me share my experience and conclusions below;

I at one time used a barber hone to raise slurry on my Norton 8K, then one day I flipped the barber hone and saw the slurry on the hone and decided to finish the blade on the barber hone with slurry from the N8K, when I was done the bevel was polished like mirror… and the resulting shave was a truly pleasant one.

What I belive happens is… the barber hone is a finer grit than the N8k so you may think putting 8K grits on a Swaty is counter productive, but the N8K grits brake down to finer grits and acts like a fast cutting intermediary hone between the N8K and the Swaty’s naturally higher grit (maybe 12K).
So now my progression is:
N8K (use Swaty to produce slurry)
Swaty (with fresh N8K slurry)
Swaty with water (after the N8K slurry has become spent and is washed off)

This should work with almost any other soft water hone rubbed on a harder but higher grit stone. For example coticule rubbed on a Chinese 12K.

I do not know if this will work on UF hones because I am not familiar with the abrasive in those hones.

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Originally Posted by smythe

.

What I belive happens is… the barber hone is a finer grit than the N8k so you may think putting 8K grits on a Swaty is counter productive, but the N8K grits brake down to finer grits and acts like a fast cutting intermediary hone between the N8K and the Swaty’s naturally higher grit (maybe 12K).
So now my progression is:
N8K (use Swaty to produce slurry)
Swaty (with fresh N8K slurry)
Swaty with water (after the N8K slurry has become spent and is washed off)

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I am sorry i think you are confused .
if you think barber hone 12k and norton 8k then how in the world you will get nice edge by using norton slurry???
I know you are saying norton slurry brakes down smaller molecules and acts like 45 k? Sorry this idea is --------.i leave this looks like this. i hope you understand.
if norton slurry will acts that way why it doesn't act similar way when you sharpen blade on norton 8k? molecules should brake down and act same as 45k right ?
Now if you are trying to make slurry off from barber hone(dosen't matter as long as slurry comes off from higher grit stone that will be different conversation)
Try do this take your barber hone and make slurry off escher ,sharpen your blade on the barber hone and see what happens.
hope this helps. gl

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Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl

I am sorry i think you are confused .
if you think barber hone 12k and norton 8k then how in the world you will get nice edge by using norton slurry???
I know you are saying norton slurry brakes down smaller molecules and acts like 45 k? Sorry this idea is --------.i leave this looks like this. i hope you understand.
if norton slurry will acts that way why it doesn't act similar way when you sharpen blade on norton 8k? molecules should brake down and act same as 45k right ?
Now if you are trying to make slurry off from barber hone(dosen't matter as long as slurry comes off from higher grit stone that will be different conversation)
Try do this take your barber hone and make slurry off escher ,sharpen your blade on the barber hone and see what happens.
hope this helps. gl

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Rest assured my friend, I am not in any way confused...

First, I never said anything about 45K (and I do not know where you got that number)... I said it would be an intermediary between 8K and (I believe) 12K.

Second, When you sharpen the blade on the N8K with slurry, it will not act the same way because the slurry will be constantly refreshed with 8K grits from the stone.

I hope this clarifies things for you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Strapped-4-Cache

Reading through the "One Coticule" honing process probably prompted the thoughts that caused me to post this thread.

I admit that I had hoped to read differing opinions on this idea in order to understand the potential benefits and pitfalls associated with attempting such a thing. I'm glad to see that no comments have begin with :rant: "Blasphemy!" or the like, and have been posted in a constructive way. Thanks for that.

I had wondered if the binder material would continue to break down into smaller, finer grits as noted by Smythe, but I have no experience to fall back on. Once the idea hit me I really began to wonder if it's possible to create a honing medium on a progressively finer surface (grit?) by diluting a slurry created by a barber hone. If so, they are traditionally much cheaper easier to come by than a coticule or escher.

I had also hoped that someone had already conducted such an experiment so a definitive answer could be provided. Since I've only just begun to get my hands on hones and have little to no experience, I am confident that any of my personal findings would be suspect because I don't have anything with which to compare the results.

When it comes to honing I have no ego to bruise, so I welcome all feedback, whether good or bad. I may try this out on a beater blade as I learn to hone simply to see what happens. I have no idea what to expect, but I hope that it's possible to use these hones for something other than a finisher, if for no other reason than to save money on an Escher / Thuringian / Naniwa / etc. On the other hand, I don't own these stones anyway, so I can't perform a side-to-side comparison.

If this simply seems like nonsense, please excuse the ramblings of a newb that needs more experience with the hones.

Thanks,

- Mark (S-4-C)

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I believe there are very few egotistical adolescents in the SRP forums and the most helpful folks are not. So feel free to ask any question and express your ideas, experiences and results. After all, were it not for free expression and sharing new ideas we would still be in the dark ages.

In my opinion, with little ingenuity you can get your edge as fine as ANY of the more expensive stones using inexpensive alternatives.

With this method you only have to bear in mind that the slurry is not constantly refreshed, so at first the abrasive will cut very fast… faster than the any of the two hones by themselves, but like a candle burring at both ends, the abrasive becomes ”spent” within a short time, so as with any other honing method you will need to get the edge properly honed on the lower grit hone before going to the fast cutting slurry and the edge will get sharper with few laps.

The idea which slurry from 8k will get smaller(by using it) and will act differently then original slurry is wrong . Doesn't matter 45 k or 9k .i just put 45 k example .
Now when you use your norton 8 k have you ever seen slurry formation? you see just black metal particles on surface of the 8k right?
if you want to make slurry off the 8 k you have to use dmt make slurry?
Your blade most like will never produce slurry off 8k.
hope this helps.

"Second, When you sharpen the blade on the N8K with slurry, it will not act the same way because the slurry will be constantly refreshed with 8K grits from the stone."
This process never happens my friend

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl

The idea which slurry from 8k will get smaller(by using it) and will act differently then original slurry is wrong . Doesn't matter 45 k or 9k .i just put 45 k example .
Now when you use your norton 8 k have you ever seen slurry formation? you see just black metal particles on surface of the 8k right?
if you want to make slurry off the 8 k you have to use dmt make slurry?
Your blade most like will never produce slurry off 8k.
hope this helps.

"Second, When you sharpen the blade on the N8K with slurry, it will not act the same way because the slurry will be constantly refreshed with 8K grits from the stone."
This process never happens my friend

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Yes… using the N8K does produce slurry, but not as fast as first using a rubbing stone, that’s why the slurry becomes black quickly.
And yes, the particles in the slurry does break down into smaller particles… and cuts differently…
And as the blade is honed the old slurry helps to raise fresh grits from the surface of the hone, this is why you have to flatten your soft water hone often, and also why soft water stones work well (and quickly) with razors.

I post the results of my experience and explained as best as I can.
It may not be what most of us have been thought (or believe), but that that does not make it wrong.

Hi_bud_gl, we are still friends, but though you say it is "wrong", you never say why.

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Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl

if you want to make slurry off the 8 k you have to use dmt make slurry?

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You don't have to use a DMT to make slurry, you can use many other harder stones to make slurry... you should know that.

When I use stones like the Naniwa 12K or the Shapton 16K I occasionally get the feeling that they are not cutting uniformly. It's like the cutting grit plays hide-n-seek with the binder.

Now take slurry from that same waterstone and put it on a smooth hard surface. Suddenly the waterstone cutting grit is "between a rock and a hard place". It can't hide. So the cutting process is boosted. The cutting rate and feedback are much more uniform. Also, I don't enjoy lapping waterstones (lazy I think). With this slurry-on-UF method I don't need to lap anything (maybe someday).

I lapped and polished my Spyderco UF on one side. It is so smooth that it doesn't cut much at all. So the only cutting action I get with the slurry method is from the slurry. My guess is the effective or nominal grit produced with this slurry method is coarser than the grit of the slurry source. I say that just because the cutting action is faster.

I know some waterstones supposedly have slurry that breaks down into finer grit, but I don't know if the ones I use do. The scratch pattern from the slurry is very different than that produced by the slurry source stone. Instead of tiny uniform grooves it is more of a mist. So comparisons of fineness are difficult.

I just sharpen my own stuff, so I am not experienced enough to make any broad statements about this method. I just like the option of doing it when I think it helps. :idea:

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Originally Posted by smythe

You don't have to use a DMT to make slurry, you can use many other harder stones to make slurry... you should know that.

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what is dmt another stone (metal plate with diamonds)right? doesn't matter you use dmt or chinse 12 k etc etc. meaning is you will not get slurry from norton 8k just using your straight razor?
i hope i was clear now.

'the particles in the slurry does break down into smaller particles… and cuts differently… '
i am not sure you are talking about Norton particles(not natural hones) if yes please provide information i would be glad to read that concept.

This has been an interesting thread!:)

Some things I am sure of

1. All aluminum oxide is not the same. It has different methods of manufacture and as a consequence it has different grain shapes and friability ( sp?), (the point at which it breaks down).
The same applies to garnets, iron oxides, ceramics and binders.

2. All barber hones, even of the same name (i.e. Swaty), are not the same. The abrasives used change as do the binders and the mfg process ( temperature, pressure, time).

This experimenting using a slurry derived from a different hone to change the effective grit of a hone is a very interesting experiment.

We here at SRP really do try to make sense of what we are experiencing when we hone. That effort frequently leads to a better understanding of what works, but not always to being certain of the reason why. We simply do not have the information or tools to get to the answer of why.

As has been said here at the SRP many times in the past, give it a try, see what happens, do it a few times, then post a thread.

Just my $.02,:)

Excuse me but I have a question. What would these various slurries do to the surface of your swaty? Has anyone tried this or should I go back downstairs into my hole and see for myself?:thinking:

So far my Swaty has remained flat. However, that may be due to the way I'm raising the slurry.

In another thread I had read a suggestions to rub two barber hones together to ensure both were flat (and possibly de-glaze them?) Anyway, I've been creating a slurry by rubbing my Swaty and Apart hones together, then using the Swaty.

The slurry is extremely fine, which is no surprise, but I can feel a slight difference on the edge between the touch-up with water only and the very slightly more aggressive touch up with slurry.

It appears that the Swaty is tougher than the Apart, because it seems that the slurry is a more reddish than brownish, which matches the Apart.