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First post here. I've been able to answer all my questions just by searching up until now.
I can understand if you only have a 2 inch wide hone why you have to do x-strokes, but what is the logic behind continuing to do them if your hone can contact you whole blade? Surely it increases the risk of uneven pressure?
Bill,
The purpose of using the X-stroke and rolling X-stroke are to allow complete contact of the edge to the stone from heel to toe during the stroke. Sometimes the heel or the toe do not make good enough contact to create the sharpness required, and the X-stroke helps to provide contact in those specific areas. As for the rolling X-stroke, this method is used for blades that have a slight warp in them and don't touch the stone completely across the blade. So if you put the blade on the stone facing one direction perhaps the middle touches and the heel and toe don't, and reversing direction indicates just the opposite. So the rolling X-stroke helps compensate for those high's and low's by starting with the heel down and the toe slight up, then make the X-stroke while, ever so slightly, raising the heel through the stroke to finish with the toe flat on the stone. This will provide complete contact of the edge through the stroke, thus eliminating wide bevels in some parts, and unsharpened areas in others. The amount of roll is very slight though and does take some getting use to. Oh by the way, most razors seem to have some sort of warp in them, so learn this method. It will make you smile when you need it.
Hope this helps
Ray
If you don't use the X Stroke the edge will usually not be even and that you don't want. You can end up with whats called a smiling blade (edge). Check the wiki on honing under Lyyn's tips.
It can also cause a frown, which is worse.
Some people do just go straight up & down the hone, if it's wide enough.
In my experience it doesn't work so well on the majority of blades. Honing takes the edge to such a degree of sharpness that very tiny imperfections in the grind will be highlighted. Even if i'm using a 3" wide DMT, i'll follow an X pattern.
Welcome to SRP Bill. I assume you've already perused the SRP Wiki but just in case you haven't here is the section on honing. If you go to Lynn Abrams on honing he addresses his reasons for using the x stroke as well as many other honing topics. He has honed thousands of razors and is the founder of SRP.
In addition here is an excerpt from a 1961 barber manual on honing and stropping. I have found it very usefull in my learning. They explain the x stroke in the manual also. :gl:
The answer is that you don't have to.
If your blade is both straight and the spine is flat, you can just use the push method, or angled method.
However, if your blade has a smile, you have to use a different stroke. Most of us use some version of the X-stroke.
While I personally do not claim to know or understand exactly why the x-stroke works, it just works better for me. I believe its because it compensates for any inconsistencies in the razor. Among other things.
Try it and see how you like it. I'm pretty sure all the really experienced honesters use the x-stroke or a variation thereof.
Very true a frown is a bit of a pain to remedy. Either one can be pretty easily avoided buy the X stroke.It also doesn't really matter what type of hone you use narrow or wide that stroke just works:-) As others have said and provided the links for the x stroke is very well illustrated in the Wiki's.
Welcome to SRP and have fun!!!
I learned two methods of honing from two people and I can't tell a difference in the edge. One was teh x-method, from Holli4Pirating,from and the other was teh circles method from JoeD. The circles method is you time your self doing small circles, say, one minute, on one side, then flip and do a minute on teh other side. I think this is similar to the back and forth method. You can do circles at every level on every hone apparently. Both those razors were sharpened by me, under supervision, and they came out fine despite my inexpertise. So I think, provided your blade makes good contact, you should in theory be fine. But as others say, the x is probably added insurace.
Quote:
Originally Posted by khaos
khoas, you almost have my system down but you missed the finishing step on each hone. Yes, I do circles on each hone to 1) remove metal rapidly while setting the bevel and 2) after setting the bevel I use circles to polish the bevel.
THE IMPORTANT PART YOU FORGOT AFTER THE CIRCLES: After doing the circles I do the x-pattern to refine the edge. If you do not perform the x-patern your enge will not be sharp!!
That would of had you scratching your head for a while!! Sorry if things went too fast for everyone at the meet.
Don't forget the all important x-pattern ( about ten strokes) after the circles on each hone! Another point to be aware of: you really shouldn't go by the stroke count on the x-pattern but by the way it cuts arm hairs. Adjust the strokes to match the state of the edge.
Good luck!:)
Sorry, I don't have the time to read the complete thread. X-strokes will account for any deviation from flat in your hone or blade. Even if you keep your hones lapped completely flat the wear just from the current honing session will create areas or wear. The x-stroke gives the best chance of avoiding defects in the edge or bevel from these voids in the hone or any (even the slightest) warp of the blade.Quote:
Originally Posted by BillConnelly
I do mine pretty much the same way with the exception I tend to use the back and forth strokes rather than circles. I do use the circles when I get a razor that is a bit of a problem getting a good edge on.
Lol sorry JoeD I remembered that I just forgot to put it in! Sorry my bad! I use that method on my J-nat and and works wonders.
Quote:
Originally Posted by khaos
No problem. Just need rto be sure the others reading this thread have a full understanding of the complete process.
I was hoping to have more time to explain the whys and hows but this will have to do:
I work mostly with antique shop, flea market and EBay razors. That's what fits my budget and I enjoy the hunt as do CarrieM and JrJoeD.
These razors as well as some NOS finds have, at best a slightly wavy edge. When I was doing just laps I found that some areas of the edge came to a good edge before other parts of the edge. Continuing with x-strokes produced wire edge (over honing) in the areas already sharp. I would have to do a few back strokes to break the wire edge, then more x-strokes to refine the edge. I would repeat this process until the complete edge was sharp but some parts were sharper than others. I thought back to some posts here by Lynn and others about doing circles to metal faster. This is also a common Tool and Die process. Back and forth motions work well also but circles cut faster since a;; pf the grit is always cutting the peaks of the scratches down and not running over valleys.
I found that the circles didn't produce a wire edge and I was able to get the whole length of the blade to the same sharpness. Yea, I might be removing more metal than really needed but I am guaranteed a good edge and no wire edge. Besides, the amount of metal removed with the hones we are using is minimal and most of it needs to come off anyway. Also, I am not wasting time flipping the blade to get all of the needed metal off. Now ya need to know that working one side at a time for a period of time, like a minute per side, will produce a burr on the other side. Once I finish the timed circles I do say 10 back and forth strokes with very light pressure to break the burrs. Than I do ~ 10 x-pattern strokes with minimal pressure/no pressure to refine the edge. When setting the bevel I do the TNT until I am sure the whole edge 'bites' into my nail. Then I do ~ 30 seconds/side to remove the damage from the test, back and forth to break the burr and ~ 10 x-pattern laps to refine the edge. Next I check the cut for the length of the blade on arm hairs, shich are very scarce, trying to cut one hair at a time in numerous parts of the blade. Moving up to the next hone I repeat the process to polish the edge so maybe 30 seconds/side, break the burrm then ~ 10 laps. After the 8k I went to the coticule and did 100 laps, water only. Then the same for the Chinese natural hone. Ya should know I do 100 laps on the in about 1.5 minutes on each hone. Holli4pirating asked me if we could do circles on the coticule and Chinese hone since everyone can't do 100 x-pattern laps in 1.5 minutes. I tried it recently and the results are acceptable on the few blades I tried it on but I still like the results of the 100 laps better.
Things to remember:
1) This process should still be considered experimental.
2) Each blade is different than the previous so times and laps should be adjusted for what the razor being honed really needs
3) When starting the circles mild pressure is OK but should be reduced to mimimal/no pressure towards the end when the edge is almost finished on the hone in use.
4) When doing the x-pattern be aware of possible wire edge, don't over hone, circles on the nest hone will break wire edge, use almost no pressure.
5) Enjoy your honing and the resulting shaves!
Good luck! :)
This method is as easy as shooting fish in a barrel with no water. And it works.