Circles on a Finisher

I think I've made it pretty clear how much I like my C12k - it's inexpensive, it puts a great finish on my blades, and once lapped it's good for quite some time. But there is one disadvantage that many people point out; it is a slooooow stone. This slowness never really bothered me, but I've got a lot of blades that I'm working on these days, and I wanted to see if I could speed things up a bit.

A couple weeks ago, I was experimenting with my Swaty by going straight from the 1k to the long Swaty to see how that would work. I found that just doing normal laps was pretty slow going, and, inspired by JoeD, I decided to try some circles. This sped up the process greatly, and now circles on my Swaty, followed by normal passes, are part of my honing routine. So I was thinking to myself, if circles work on the Swaty why wouldn't the work on the C12k.

This isn't really anything all that crazy, but I've never seen anyone talk about doing circles on a finisher. I'm not sure if this is because people want the scratch pattern or if they don't need to spend that much time on their finishers or what, but since the C12k is so slow, it seemed like a good idea. I ran the idea by JoeD one afternoon when he stopped by my place, and he said it sounded good to him. I was glad to hear that, because JoeD is way, way, way more knoweldgable about metals than I am.

So today was my first shave with blades that I circled on the C12k. To give fill disclosure, here's my honing process. I set the bevels on my King 1k. This involved circles on one of the blades and just normal passes on the other two. I then went to my long Swaty, starting with about 20 seconds of circles on each side, followed by about 30 normal passes. I then went to the C12k for about 25 seconds of circles on each side and then about 40 passes. The blades were an American Knife Co (full hollow), a Herbertz Solingen (just about a full hollow, maybe a touch thicker), and a W&B (about a quarter hollow). I'm not sure if the American is actually American Steel (looks like a Sheffield blade but says Plymouth Hollow), but I figured it was a good variety of steels. I am pleased to say that all of the blades were extremely smooth shavers.

Now I'm not actually sure if I saved myself any time, because I've never timed myself on a C12k. However, having the variation of circles and normal laps on the C12k made it feel quicker. I also don't have the patience to do 100 laps on my C12k, so I usually call it quits around 60. This has also showed me that doing circles on a finisher (or at least on this finisher) can indeed work quite well. Furthermore, the scratch patterns that are left on the blades are not the regular parallel (////) lines that my other blades have, so it seems that pattern is not all-important.

While this is by no means a full experiment, I think my results thus far are rather informative, and I'm going to continue with circles on my C12k. If anyone else has tried or is inspired to, please share your results. (I'm pretty sure JoeD said he tried it, but I'll let him speak for himself, if he chooses to).

great work and experiment.
if you do forward and backward fast movement that will speed up the process too. Only important is pressure. your hands needs to get use to put equal pressure both side of the blade same.
if am not mistaken dovo always finishes their razors fast circular motion.hope this helps.

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Originally Posted by holli4pirating

I think I've made it pretty clear how much I like my C12k - it's inexpensive, it puts a great finish on my blades, and once lapped it's good for quite some time. But there is one disadvantage that many people point out; it is a slooooow stone. This slowness never really bothered me, but I've got a lot of blades that I'm working on these days, and I wanted to see if I could speed things up a bit.

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What is a C12k? That isn't on the acronyms and abbreviations page.
Thanks,
Kent

Several years ago my grandfather gave me an old razor hone his father had given him. When he showed me how to use it, he used circular strokes. So that technique has some history behind it. At least in my family. :)
Kent

When you are doing the circular motion on your Chinese 12k stone, how much pressure do you apply? Is it about the same amount as the normal stroke? And how do you compensate for any warpage?

Great thread by the way!

Ray

I played with the circles on finishers years ago. For every day work, I found it not necessary as all the prep on the way up to the finisher made is possible to just use 10-15 X strokes on my normal finishing stones, ie, Coticule, Escher etc. I can see this on the Chinese 12K followed by some X strokes because of how slow and inconsistent that stone is. The biggest problem with the Chinese has always been that you don't know if you need 50 or 300 strokes to get there. The same would apply to the number of circles, but if you just do a few razors, no big deal.

The other nice aspect of this method for S&G's is to use it for refreshing a razor. Normally, I find that 10-15 strokes on the other stones will do the trick, but on the Chinese it would be fun to try 20 to 40 to 60 to 80 to whatever circles both ways followed by some X styrokes.

Good one,

Lynn

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Originally Posted by rayman

When you are doing the circular motion on your Chinese 12k stone, how much pressure do you apply? Is it about the same amount as the normal stroke? And how do you compensate for any warpage?

Great thread by the way!

Ray

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On the finishers, I would recommend very little pressure. You can do circles at a 45 degree angle to compensate for warpage or a lot of uneven flattening on the spines.

Lynn

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Originally Posted by keenedge

What is a C12k? That isn't on the acronyms and abbreviations page.
Thanks,
Kent

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C12k is short hand for the Chinese 12k hone.

Yep, I experimented with the circles on my coticule and Chinese natural. My latest honing writeup is here: http://straightrazorpalace.com/basic...tml#post430074

I mentioned in the write up that the circles on the Chinese produced good results but that I preferred the 100 laps since it doesn't take me that long. That was at the end of a long day. Today I will say that the circles did result in a smooth shave with less room for error over the 100 laps and produce an extremely sharp edge. For me, the time difference isn't anything but for most I would see the time/effort saving. I do feel the 100 laps produces a very slightly sharper edge but that may be debatable. At that level of difference there are a lot of events that could cause the difference if there really is one. Some day in the near future I may just take a razor and finish it with 100 laps, test shave, then do circles followed by some x strokes and test again. That would tell me if the circles take anything away from the edge and would be under the exact same skin conditions with the edge at the same level.

I agree with Holli that this process has produced very favorable results in my limited experiments. Like most people, my son would rather do the circles on the coticule and Chinese hone over the 100 laps also. So if that makes it more fun for him and produces the same or very close results, which it does, I all for it and Jr is a happy learning and honing! :D

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Originally Posted by rayman

When you are doing the circular motion on your Chinese 12k stone, how much pressure do you apply? Is it about the same amount as the normal stroke? And how do you compensate for any warpage?

Great thread by the way!

Ray

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I use as little pressure as possible, which is how I always hone. I've not had any warped blades recently, but leading angles can help, as Lynn said. What I have experienced, on the other hand, is smiling blades. For those, I rock the blade from the toe to the heal and back as I'm making circles. As I'm making circles, I move the blade perpendicular to the hone (because my hone is narrower than my blades), so I rock towards the heal when I have the heal of the blade on the hone and I rock the blade towards the toe when I have the toe of the razor on the hone.

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Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl

great work and experiment.
if you do forward and backward fast movement that will speed up the process too. Only important is pressure. your hands needs to get use to put equal pressure both side of the blade same.
if am not mistaken dovo always finishes their razors fast circular motion.hope this helps.

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I read that too!

Like Lynn by the time I get to my finisher I don't need that many strokes but I don't see why it wouldn't work well as long as you finish up with a few straight strokes.

Actually I've used that technique when doing major restoration on some Japanese Traditional Straights from lower to upper grits.

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Originally Posted by holli4pirating

I use as little pressure as possible, which is how I always hone. I've not had any warped blades recently, but leading angles can help, as Lynn said. What I have experienced, on the other hand, is smiling blades. For those, I rock the blade from the toe to the heal and back as I'm making circles. As I'm making circles, I move the blade perpendicular to the hone (because my hone is narrower than my blades), so I rock towards the heal when I have the heal of the blade on the hone and I rock the blade towards the toe when I have the toe of the razor on the hone.

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The 45 degree circles and 45 degree X strokes definitely work on Smiley blades too along with frowning blades and those that have been honed so much that you have significant flattening in the spine at different places even if different on both sides. They can be used consistently from bevel setting to finishing.

Lynn

I see lots of mentions that finishing up with straight strokes seem to be important. I'm not saying that I disagree, but that I don't know that that is the case. Is that grounded in practice (i.e. did you try only circling and find that the shave was not great) or is that something that comes from knowledge of cutting (certain scratch patterns/teeth cut better) or somewhere else? I'm going to try only circles on my C12k next time to see what that does.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by holli4pirating

I see lots of mentions that finishing up with straight strokes seem to be important. I'm not saying that I disagree, but that I don't know that that is the case. Is that grounded in practice (i.e. did you try only circling and find that the shave was not great) or is that something that comes from knowledge of cutting (certain scratch patterns/teeth cut better) or somewhere else? I'm going to try only circles on my C12k next time to see what that does.

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I don't know about straight strokes, but I do finish with X strokes after circles always. From looking at the microscope, I have seen that the X strokes really even out all the visible marks from circles when present (depending on the grit and type of stone being used). I personally have found that shaving was better (smoother/easier glide) using the X strokes v. just circles which is why I added them going back some years ago when I started incorporating circles as a process and progression.

Actually, I still prefer teaching new guys how to do pyramids and X stroke progressions before doing the circles so that they really get to learn a good stroke and how different progressions and different stones will perform first.

Have fun,

Lynn