Antoni Tadross - Miniscule frown

After twenty-five strokes on either side of my norton 4k/8k I realized that my Tadross spike point has developed a frown. The heel and toe were keen enough to pass the arm hair test, while I noticed a grainy sort of pull when the middle of the blade passes over my wet thumbnail. I am not sure how to fix this, and I have thus discontinued my honing. The entire edge of the blade stays on the stone for the entire pass, leaving behind no water/slurry it simply does not sharpen as fast as the heel or toe. I do not use the x-pattern on any of my hones due to their width, if anyone thinks that may be the problem.

I am not sure what to do in this instance because all other reccomendations on honing a frowning blade say to change the angle to ensure the edge comes into contact with the hone, but mine already does? The blade would more then likely be shavable if I continued honing on all of my stones and some good stropping, but I am afraid I will 'encourage' the problem in the middle of the blade.

Also, it's probably not correct to refer to it as a frowning blade but I do not know what to call it besides this because it seems to me that the edge must not be touching >as< much or something along these lines.

Let's start with defining a frown.
If you imagine your spine to be a straight line, then consider the edge to also be parallel to the spine. A frown would be when the distance from the spine to the edge in the middle of the blade is less than that same distance at the heel and toe.
So, for a start, does your blade have a frown?

Also, regardless of the width of your hone, an x-stroke will help to make sure that the full length of your edge is contacting the hone.

Yes, it does have a frown. The very tips of the heel and toe are close to the same level as it but to either side of it touches while the middle, heel, and toe do not.

I've attached a quite crude drawing of what I mean, while on the blade is very small amounts of difference - I can not take an adequate picture with my phone and do not have a digital camera on hand.

It is safe to say that I have pretty much owned my razor. Before I noticed the frown, I was honing my straight quite well - passing the arm hair test after only the first step in the pyramid on my norton 4k/8k (thirty strokes both sides). However, as I was inspecting the edge I noticed that it had a slight frown in the middle, while the rest of the blade maintained it's smile. Thus, the middle was not becoming sharpened with the rest of the blade.

SO. In my haste, with a new set of hones laying in front of me - I have attempted to fix this problem myself, and began breadknifing my hone on a very coarse aluminum oxide. The funny thing is, however - that my blade is considerably stronger then this stone and make small 'paths' where I've been pressing through. This, however is not the problem. After doing this for quite some time I had visibly worn down the heel and toe quite a bit, and looked a lot more even then before I started - so I gave it a few rolling strokes on the aluminum and started a hefty twenty stroke pyramid and worked down to six-two. However, my blade is still blunt and extremely so. I could probably cut butter with this straight, but not much else.

So, I am wondering if I should just try it again under someone's guidance (probably someone from here) or what? Obviously I don't want to give up because I want to learn how to do this, as I purchased myself a set of hones to do so.

For anyone wondering, the blade is a spike point 1912 Antoni Tadross that I whipped up pretty nice. The only thing wrong is the black discoloration, which can only be removed at the sacrifice of a frosted emblem - and of course now the blunt edge.

Yes, you need guidance. You need not bother with the pyramids until you have the bevel set but it sounds like you are still dealing fixing the outline of the razor edge. Until you get that accomplished, you're not ready to set the bevel, much less play around with the pyramids. Is there any way that you can produce of photo of your razor in its current state?

I'll get a picture of it with my phone, but it will not reveal much detail.

In the Wiki you will find a system I put together for doing just that, I recommend you not only read that but follow the links to the original thread as many questions were asked and answered in the original... There is also any anti-Breadknifing thread that you can find by searching member "WildTim" and going to his stats, which also has a ton of discussion in it, and several helpful ideas...

Warning: without a sub 1k stone breadknifing is crazy, with one it is just a lot of work....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

In the Wiki you will find a system I put together for doing just that, I recommend you not only read that but follow the links to the original thread as many questions were asked and answered in the original... There is also any anti-Breadknifing thread that you can find by searching member "WildTim" and going to his stats, which also has a ton of discussion in it, and several helpful ideas...

Warning: without a sub 1k stone breadknifing is crazy, with one it is just a lot of work....

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yes... when i need a good upper body workout i breadknife some straights.

First of all, without seeing an actual photo of the blade it is very difficult to give you an assessment of your problem with such little information. With that in mind, however, it seems that you have several ways of midigating your problem. First, it seems that you need to establish a new bevel on this blade. With the problem you are facing, an X-pattern is almost manditory to do this, and it might even take a rolling X-pattern depending on the severity. Second, if that does not resolve the issue, and your frowning is worse than expected, I would consider breadknifing the blade and starting from scratch. That, however, is a drastic measure, and I would consider the former before the later. Maybe someone else might be able to give you some better advice than this, however.


Ray

Have you used magic marker on the edge to determine what is coming in contact and what is not ? That would be my first step. I would go so far as to say that it is a known fact that an x pattern is the preferred method to insure complete contact with the hone no matter what the width of the stone.

Here is the 1961 excerpt from the barber manual. It is the section on honing and stropping and contains a tutorial with illustrations on using the x pattern and specifically on avoiding the problem of a frown.

Since you don't seem confident in your honing I would suggest you send that razor out to a honemiester to have it corrected and perhaps pick up some flea market or ebay cheap but decent blades to practice with. A professionally honed razor will also give you a benchmark with which to compare your own results.

if your blade's heel and tip touches the stone middle doesn't then tape the middle portion of your blade and continue hone on 1 k untill you will have edge on straight line. you made need change tape very often. just don't get scare it will get evened up. when you tape middle make sure length of the tape is matching the length of the dull length of the blade.
gl.

With this thread and this one in the honing section, you're asking the same question in two places. It might be better if all of the discussion/help could be consolidated in one thread.

Could a moderator consolidate these or close one or anything else to help out?

Good idea Ron
The threads are all here now,,

I have a keen kutter that shaves perfectly well which I have been comparing my tadross to, as they are both spike points and nearly the same grind (as far as my eye can tell). The problem is that the middle of the blade does not touch, and even with x-strokes and rolling the blade the heel and toe still sharpen faster then the middle. Thus, as I stated in another thread that was moved here I have begun breadknifing the razor on my 400/800 (around there it's a coarse/fine stone without actual ratings) alum oxide stone.

It has evened up a little bit but it's looking like I'm going to have to do a bit more then use the same stone to set the bevel again. I do not have any coarser stones, the next up being my norton 4k/8k.

Restoration...
I am going to go against the grain here, as most people are going to say that with enough time, and talent you can correct the edge on the 4k which technically is correct... In reality it will take hours and hours of tedious honing, which you will get sick of doing, and add pressure, and most likely wind up right back in the same place you started....

Doing razor restoration requires different tools then simple honing....

I was actually going to set the bevel on my low grit aluminum oxide. It is a not a whet stone, requiring a good lubing of 3-in-1 oil every now and then, but in the very low grit range. Are you saying I will need some kind of grinding done or something?

Alright, after some more breadknifing I seem to have gotten the Tadross straighter then it was - although now the toe of the blade seems to be a little bit higher then the heel and middle, in a sort of smiling fashion. I've given it about sixty strokes on each side of aluminum oxide, varying between swooping and regular x. After I seemed to be producing an adequate bevel I moved it to the norton with around fifty on each side, then up to my coticule for around twenty to twenty five. After this I honed on my chinese for a bit, around thirty strokes back and forth, then started a small slurry and did around twenty finishing strokes. <=== On the chinese does the slurry drop the grit, wouldn't want that if it does?

It seems to have a decent edge, and has a gritty but not jagged pull on my thumbnail, it also pops hair but feels a bit rough when doing so. The edge is extremely thin towards the toe, and it will not pop hairs like the heel and middle. I'm not sure if I should re-hone or what at this point. Also, I have yet to strop the blade but was planning thirty on untreated canvas and forty on leather. Would using a different stroke or going back and just focusing on the toe until it's evened out with the rest of the edge work?

Both my Tadross and Kutter are now unshavable, both only popping hairs. I am not sure if it something in my honing technique or not. I've listed the stones I have and go through a progression of around twenty or so strokes on the norton, twenty on the coticule, and a finish of ten no slurry on the chinese and ten without.

Should I be using a pyramid technique or something different?

so you dulled the other razor too?
presuming you haven't done anything drastic with it here's what you should do
- stick to the keen kutter and the norton
- use pyramids to make it shave
- once it shaves satisfactory use the coticule say 10-30 very light laps with water only - that will improve the edge. alternatively do 100 laps on the chinese hone with water only.

- work on the tadross next


this is not a newbie thread so i'm moving it to the honing section

Okay, I will try this. I didn't do anything with the kutter besides the strokes I mentioned.

I did this with a finish on the coticule with the kutter and a finish on the chinese with the tadross, and it still wasn't sharp enough to shave. It pops hair but doesn't cut close enough. I am quite sure it is not my technique while shaving as I have shaved with straights just fine before. I tried the kutter without stropping to see if perhaps I was messing up in that area but it did not do any better then tadross.