Overloaded by information!! Need advice

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08-12-2009, 05:44 PM
Hammett

Overloaded by information!! Need advice

Hi guys!!

It's been a week reading this forum about honing, razors, coticules and stones. Previous to this week I had absolutely no idea how this world could be so vast and complicated.

The thing is that I own a straight razor that now needs honing. I cannot shave anymore without suffering quite a bit and cutting myself.

As I said, I've read a lot of posts here, and I am completely overloaded with the information I got that now I cannot decide what's best for me.

For starters I let you know that my idea is not to spent much money on the hone(s). And after much inner discussion with myself, I ended up with 2 options.

1.- Buy a Norton starting kit 220/1000 and 4000/8000.
Good thing about this set is that I have almost all the range (maybe I'll lack a finish stone?) and I will get as well a grip for the hone (safety is always good)

2.- Buy a Yellow Coticule and a coticule stone.
Good thing is that I will have a very good natural stone. My idea was to use it with slurry for getting the razor into shape and the just water for the polish (if I understood well Bart's post about yellow coticule honing). And from what I have read, the finish result is better than the Norton 8000.

Both sets are almost the same price (on eBay) and I really can´t decide which set to get.
I know some of you will say "get the Norton and later on move to the Coticule". I don´t want to buy stones that later on I will not be using. I prefer to spent few dollars in cheap razors than 130$ in a new hone. Please just correct me if I am wrong.

Thanks for your advice!!
08-12-2009, 05:54 PM
JimmyHAD

Just IMHO I would recommend the Norton set. SRP founder Lynn Abrams learned on those and wore out a half dozen on the 4k side in honing thousands of razors. At one time the 8k was as good as it got and that ain't half bad.

I would recommend getting one razor professionally honed which would give you something decent to shave with as well as a benchmark to gauge you own efforts in learning to hone with the Nortons. If you follow the instructions in the pyramid honing guide here you should do fine. If at a later date you've learned honing to your satisfaction then moving on to coticules or other finishers would be cool.

In the meantime the Nortons and maybe some chrome ox on balsa or felt would be my recommendation.
08-12-2009, 05:57 PM
Slartibartfast

Since you mention not wanting to spend much on hones:

3. Send the razor to a honemeister and buy a barber hone/pasted strop

A) $15-$20 for a professional honing.
B) $15-$30 for a barber hone for touchups when the razor starts to pull.
1. Create a pasted strop to use alone on in addition to barber hone.
C) repeat process A when B no longer gives satisfactory results.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hammett

Hi guys!!

It's been a week reading this forum about honing, razors, coticules and stones. Previous to this week I had absolutely no idea how this world could be so vast and complicated.

The thing is that I own a straight razor that now needs honing. I cannot shave anymore without suffering quite a bit and cutting myself.

As I said, I've read a lot of posts here, and I am completely overloaded with the information I got that now I cannot decide what's best for me.

For starters I let you know that my idea is not to spent much money on the hone(s). And after much inner discussion with myself, I ended up with 2 options.

1.- Buy a Norton starting kit 220/1000 and 4000/8000.
Good thing about this set is that I have almost all the range (maybe I'll lack a finish stone?) and I will get as well a grip for the hone (safety is always good)

2.- Buy a Yellow Coticule and a coticule stone.
Good thing is that I will have a very good natural stone. My idea was to use it with slurry for getting the razor into shape and the just water for the polish (if I understood well Bart's post about yellow coticule honing). And from what I have read, the finish result is better than the Norton 8000.

Both sets are almost the same price (on eBay) and I really can´t decide which set to get.
I know some of you will say "get the Norton and later on move to the Coticule". I don´t want to buy stones that later on I will not be using. I prefer to spent few dollars in cheap razors than 130$ in a new hone. Please just correct me if I am wrong.

Thanks for your advice!!
08-12-2009, 06:01 PM
rayman

+1 on what Jimmy said. There are a few other questions that need to be answered first though. What razor do you have, and where did you get it? Was it shave ready when you bought it? How long have you been using it, and approx. how many shaves have you gotten out of it? Do you have a strop, and do you know how to use it properly? I am asking these questions so that we can make a better recommendation for you.

Ray
08-12-2009, 06:02 PM
Joed

Welcome to SRP Hammet! You mentioned that you have a straight razor that now needs honing. Are you planning on buying a lot more straight razors? If the answer is yes than get yourself a nice set of hones and go from there. The Norton hones will give you a more repeatable result for a newbie and the coticule can be added later on.

If you do not plan on buying lots more straight razors and you have been using the one you have for a long time I would suggest just sending the razor to a honemister listed in the classified section and just getting a barbers hone to 'touch up' the edge every few months.

Good luck!
08-12-2009, 06:03 PM
ENUF2

Hello and welcome to SRP. I myself am still quite new here so take what I can give for what it is. Most will tell you 1 razor is not enough you need at least 2 for this reason. There are those here who are true Honemeister's who can sharpen your's fairly quick. You can find a list in the classifieds. I have Shapton stones (1K - 16K) which do a great job (for a beginner) but before that I was just using a Barber's Hone for touch up. You may want to consider a professional sharpening and find a good finishing hone and work on getting the others later. Again welcome and I'm sure you'll see better answers shortly.
08-12-2009, 06:37 PM
Hammett

Thanks for all the answers!

One added problem is where I live. I live in Dublin, and there are not many honemeisters around (I've checked a couple of barber shops and they don't know any). And there are not many places where I can get hones and a reasonably price. Those imported from the US are very expensive due to shipping, and some companies (such as Amazon) do not ship that item outside US.

I only have one razor, bought it shave ready (or at least I could shave with it, really cannot tell which is the "shave ready" standard) in a local store. The brand is Kedake (never heard of it). I don't think is a good razor, and being my first razor I didn't want to spent a lot of money with that and then destroying it in the process of honing. I usually shave once or twice a week, and I have been using it for 6 months already (sorry, no strop but I know how to use it)

My idea was to get 2/3 razors and learn to hone with the "bad" one. Then move to better razors as my experience grows as well.

I see most of you do recommend a honemeister (which unfortunatelly is not a valid option in Dublin), and then get the Norton and move on to Yellow Coticule.
Is the coticule far more complicated to master than the Norton? If so, why?

Thanks again :)
08-12-2009, 06:50 PM
Slartibartfast

A strop should be your first priority.

I couldnt find much info on kedake other than this: http://straightrazorpalace.com/razor...ake-razor.html

But in short.... If i were you.....

1) Buy a strop
2) Buy a 2nd razor, shave ready.
a) look at the SRP Classifieds. Also..since you are in the UK... Introduction to razors
Some of the UK members of SRP should have more too add...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hammett

Thanks for all the answers!

One added problem is where I live. I live in Dublin, and there are not many honemeisters around (I've checked a couple of barber shops and they don't know any). And there are not many places where I can get hones and a reasonably price. Those imported from the US are very expensive due to shipping, and some companies (such as Amazon) do not ship that item outside US.

I only have one razor, bought it shave ready (or at least I could shave with it, really cannot tell which is the "shave ready" standard) in a local store. The brand is Kedake (never heard of it). I don't think is a good razor, and being my first razor I didn't want to spent a lot of money with that and then destroying it in the process of honing. I usually shave once or twice a week, and I have been using it for 6 months already (sorry, no strop but I know how to use it)

My idea was to get 2/3 razors and learn to hone with the "bad" one. Then move to better razors as my experience grows as well.

I see most of you do recommend a honemeister (which unfortunatelly is not a valid option in Dublin), and then get the Norton and move on to Yellow Coticule.
Is the coticule far more complicated to master than the Norton? If so, why?

Thanks again :)
08-12-2009, 06:52 PM
gssixgun

Try and see if our member "Poona" will answer your PM, he does know how to hone and he lives by you IIRC...

I am not sure he is honing all the time anymore, but he might help out a countryman....

Welcome to SRP...
08-12-2009, 07:55 PM
JimmyHAD

Steve of The Invisible Edge is also in the UK. He is blueprinciple on the forums. He is a masterful honer an also sells new and vintage razors on his webpage here. He now carries the Naniwa superstones and Belgian coticules too. A Naniwa 1k, 3k, and 5k would be a decent set IMO along with an 8k if it were affordable. A yellow and blue Belgian is another option.
08-12-2009, 09:15 PM
Bart

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hammett

Is the coticule far more complicated to master than the Norton? If so, why?

No it is not more complicated. It's just very different. In my homeland Belgium, where Coticules come from, most stores that sell straight razors sell only one type of sharpening tool: Coticules. It is considered the tool for sharpening razors around here. In the US, it seems that for the past decade, a similar place was taken by the Norton 4K/8K synthetic water hone. (The Norton was originally made in the US, while Coticules are mined in Belgium - maybe that is part of the reason for these different "standards").
Either way, there is not only an ocean in between Belgium and the US, but also an ocean of difference between how both tools can be successfully put to use for sharpening razors. The methods for synthetic water hones fail on a Coticule, and the methods for using a Coticule are ridiculous on synthetic water hones.

When it comes to the actual quality of the shave, it is completely unpredictable what will work best for your beard/skin combination, but I believe it is only a concern, if you would become a shave-aficionado (as many of us here on SRP). Both options, as many others, are fully capable of putting a well-performing edge on a straight razor.

I believe it is far more important to ask yourself what type of person you are. Coticules have a character of their own. No two are alike. Some people resent that, others love that kind of uniqueness. Nortons need soaking, Coticules don't (there are synthetics that resuire no soaking as well). Some hones require constant lapping, others don't. Some hones do a fast job, others (like Coticules) require more patience.
My advice is to buy what goes with your temperament and general mindset, and stick with your choice till you can get great shaves off your home-honed razors. Both options are more than capable of that.

Best regards,
Bart.
08-13-2009, 01:35 PM
Hammett

Many thanks for that explanation Bart. I am more inclined to the natural hones vs man-made ones (maybe because I am European??)

I have seen as well a nice BBW + Coti + Slurry stone. The BBW is 4K and Coti is 8K.

I have read some posts about that combo, and people is satisfied with it. But me being a complete rookie on this, how the process of hone would be? My idea is:
1.- BBW + Slurry
2.- Coti + Slurry (downgrading the slurry progressively)
3.- Coti + Water

Is that good enough? Is the BBW with slurry more aggressive than Coti with slurry? (considering bbw is 4k and coti 8k)

Thanks !
08-13-2009, 01:58 PM
BHChieftain

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hammett

Many thanks for that explanation Bart. I am more inclined to the natural hones vs man-made ones (maybe because I am European??)

I have seen as well a nice BBW + Coti + Slurry stone. The BBW is 4K and Coti is 8K.

I have read some posts about that combo, and people is satisfied with it. But me being a complete rookie on this, how the process of hone would be? My idea is:
1.- BBW + Slurry
2.- Coti + Slurry (downgrading the slurry progressively)
3.- Coti + Water

Is that good enough? Is the BBW with slurry more aggressive than Coti with slurry? (considering bbw is 4k and coti 8k)

Thanks !

Hi,
Bart posted a good wiki article in the "honing" section that explains the progression. You have 2 and 1 mixed up... coti + slurry is the most agressive (usually used for setting the bevel), then move to BBW + slurry.

On what hone you should get... one thing to think about is do you want to get a reliable, sharp edge quickly and be done with it, or do you like mucking around with a more "variable" solution until you hit upon the right formula?

Lynn has posted in the wiki a reliable method of getting your razor sharp using nortons and a pyramid honing progression, and the general consensus is this is a rock solid approach.

The coticule route has much more variablity, as the stones can be different, and you need to figure out the optimal slurry thickness, and the slurry thinning rate. I went the BBW/Coti route because I like to tinker (and I just think the stones are pretty)... I have 3 razors, one 1 I got fantastic results pretty quickly, but on the other 2 I've been struggling to get the keeness to where I want it to be without resorting to a double bevel method, and right now I'm experimenting with slurry thinning rates to nail down where I went south... I'm having fun with it, but if that isn't want you are looking for you could get frustrated.

I would also recommend getting a practice razor if you want to learn how to re-set bevels. I had one for awhile before I shipped it to somebody who was looking for a practice razor, but even then, I managed to drag the edge of a really expensive razor along the edge of my hone, which trashed it-- had to send out out for a professional reset... with the BBW/Coti method, you'll be doing *a lot* of strokes, so you want to get that skill down pat.

-Chief
08-13-2009, 02:01 PM
JimmyHAD

As Chief noted here is Bart's article in the SRP Wiki. There is also this thread in which Bart goes into another method if you're going with the coticule here.
08-13-2009, 02:31 PM
Hammett

Thanks both. I have read just now the wikis. I consider myself a patience man, and I do really like to try to get the best I can from anything.

I don't really mind if it takes a while, I just look for that hone(s) that will give me best results, even if I have to dedicate double time.
08-13-2009, 03:45 PM
hi_bud_gl

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hammett

I don't really mind if it takes a while, I just look for that hone(s) that will give me best results, even if I have to dedicate double time.

Hammett it is really depends a lot factors if you are looking for the hones to give you best results.
number one will be how much money you want to spend on hones.
Second what you like natural hones or synthetic ones.
Third i think you mention maybe the most important factor to be patient and you have patience. this is a BIG ++++++++++.
Lastly Time -give yourself time and you will learn and choose your preferable stone.
i personally like to get results as fast as i can ( this doesn't meant not quality edge i would spend more time to get the edge i like ) After honing a little longer you will see what makes you happy.GL
08-14-2009, 09:36 AM
Hammett

Hi!

The money I want to spend on the hones... well, I want to spend the least money, but without sacrificing quality. I prefer to pay few extra dollars and get a better hone that will give me better results. The money is not a big big problem, but I want to buy a hone that will last me long long time.

I think I am more of a natural hone, so I was looking for a BBW + Yellow coticule combo that I found on eBay for a very good reasonable price.

I know it's gonna take more time, efford and probably frustration on my learning curve to get my razor to the point I want, but that's where you guys come into play, cause I think I will bombarding you questions for a while... ;)

Do you think BBW + Yellow Coti + Slurry Stone is a good combo?

Thanks a lot :)
08-14-2009, 09:47 AM
AlanII

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hammett

Hi!

Do you think BBW + Yellow Coti + Slurry Stone is a good combo?

Thanks a lot :)

Unfortunately the best answer to that is, probably, that it can be. Whatever your decision (and coticules are lovely and effective stones, I use one all the time), it would be wise to take the advice on getting the razor properly honed by someone who knows what they're doing. It shows you what you're aiming for and edge maintenance is simple when compared to edge creation. If you have no luck contacting Poona then Steve at the Invisible Edge is a great guy to deal with as others have already said.