I Need Help With This One!

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08-13-2009, 03:13 PM
rayman

I Need Help With This One!

I have been doing some pro-bono honing for students and newbees recently, and received a package yesterday that had in it a couple of the dreaded ebay wonders. So I opened one of them and started doing an assessment. The scales were dirty, but fine, and the pins needed a little tightening so no big deal. The blade was a Torrey, and had that 10 year look to it. You know, the dark gray patina that needs to be removed before you want to touch it. There was excessive wear on the spine. The tip of the blade had remnants of a thumb notch, indicating part of it had been removed. There was visible signs of corosion near the tip that went into the bevel area, and the blade was very dull but showed the shiny line of possibly having been breadknifed to hide perhaps rust or chipping.

So, no big deal, I first applied Flitz to the blade and removed the tarnish. I hate working on dirty blades. Then I put a layer of tape on the spine to protect what was left of that area, and started honing on the 1k nani to set the bevel. After about 50 strokes I decided to switch to my DMT 1.2k to speed things up. 50 strokes later I moved to the DMT 325 and worked for almost 1/2 an hour when the edge started to appear. Once I had a consistant feel across the blade, not sharp but consistant, I moved back to the 1.2k DMT. The blade started to sharpen up and would actually cut hair, so I then moved to the 1k nani. 5 strokes later the blade was dull again. So back to the 1.2 k and 25 strokes later it was sharp again. Moved to the 3k again, and the same thing, 5 strokes and it was dull. I stayed on the 3k for 50 strokes and the blade started to get sharp again. At this point I decided to start a pyramid and went to the 5k nani and did 5 strokes. Yep... dull. Back to the 3k and 25 strokes later sharp. Back to 5k, 1 stroke this time - dull again.

I played with this thing for 3 hours, and finally came off the 3k nani, which by the way is equivalent to 4k, stroped 20 strokes on Crox and 50 strokes on strop, and will pass the HHT. This razor is far from ready to use though. I have never had a razor follow this kind of pattern before. I keep thinking that maybe it lost its temper, but ones I have seen like that don't act like this.

Does anyone have any idea what the heck is going on here?

Ray
08-13-2009, 04:17 PM
gssixgun

A hint for the next one, you are beyond this point on this one...

http://straightrazorpalace.com/basic...tml#post435617

Now let me re-read your post :)
08-13-2009, 04:27 PM
rayman

Actually, I did do this in the beginning, and the bevel seemed to be developing quite normally, just a little slower than normal. Checking it often ,under my 60x scope, revealed no preliminary indications of being out of the norm. It just doesn't seem to maintain its edge when moving up in grits.

Ray
08-13-2009, 04:30 PM
gary haywood

That is what i found in similar post i set a bevel on naniwa 1k and had to go back to my 12oodmt and i could feel the sharpness straight away. I have stook at the naniwas i have just done two razors for achap as favour setting bevel exactly like lynn does on 1k just untill i had grip on tpt then moved to 3k 5k 8k 12k i find as you get to the 5k 8k especialy then i notice a real sharp edge. I've put it down to the dmt leaving a much chopia edge with plenty of grab you don't get that feel of 1k naniwa i can just shave arm hair with 1k naniwa with dmt1200 i could esily shave my face its weird but the shaves from my naniwas are great when finished up to 12k level. I did a ton of strokes on my naniwa 1k to set bevel i though is this thing cutting i cleaned it regular as once it loaded it lost cutting power quik but iwas working on a totaly blunt razor but it got there in the end. I think the naniwas are exallant hones and do the job well but they feel differant i'm sure on tpt not as sticky untill you hit say 8k . work up to 8k do tpt and see if you get more stickier feeling then if not i don't no.
08-13-2009, 04:41 PM
hi_bud_gl

Quote:

Originally Posted by rayman

So, no big deal, I first applied Flitz to the blade and removed the tarnish. I hate working on dirty blades. Then I put a layer of tape on the spine to protect what was left of that area, and started honing on the 1k nani to set the bevel. After about 50 strokes I decided to switch to my DMT 1.2k to speed things up. 50 strokes later I moved to the DMT 325 and worked for almost 1/2 an hour when the edge started to appear. Once I had a consistant feel across the blade, not sharp but consistant, I moved back to the 1.2k DMT. The blade started to sharpen up and would actually cut hair, so I then moved to the 1k nani. 5 strokes later the blade was dull again. So back to the 1.2 k and 25 strokes later it was sharp again. Moved to the 3k again, and the same thing, 5 strokes and it was dull. I stayed on the 3k for 50 strokes and the blade started to get sharp again. At this point I decided to start a pyramid and went to the 5k nani and did 5 strokes. Yep... dull. Back to the 3k and 25 strokes later sharp. Back to 5k, 1 stroke this time - dull again.

Does anyone have any idea what the heck is going on here?

Ray

Ray is above all true then this is the strangers edge i have heart about it. Seems like when you go lower grit edge gets better as soon as you went higher it dulls?
this is not temper issue as far as know . if you change temper what happens blade doesn't take an edge .
i would suggest if you have pastes available try them and see what happens.
08-13-2009, 04:43 PM
rayman

Gary,
This is about the 30th or so razor I have run through my nani's. I have not ever seen anything like this happen before, but you know what, you might just have a point here. There definately is a difference in doing a TPT with these stones, and perhaps there might be some unusual difference in the steel in this one compared to the others I have done. And if there is, this could be why it seems to feel dull as I progress upward in grit successions. VERY GOOD POINT. Thanks for suggesting this. Later on this evening, after I take my arm out of its sling...:), I will give this a go.

Thanks again,

Ray
08-13-2009, 04:50 PM
rayman

Quote:

Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl

Ray is above all true then this is the strangers edge i have heart about it. Seems like when you go lower grit edge gets better as soon as you went higher it dulls?
this is not temper issue as far as know . if you change temper what happens blade doesn't take an edge .
i would suggest if you have pastes available try them and see what happens.

You are absolutly correct about the temper issue. I have run into that twice before, but just took a shot in the dark. I think maybe Gary, in the sheer simplicity of his suggestion, might have given me the answer to this dilema. The Nani's are very nice stones, but like any other change in equipment, there is a learning curve that needs to be addressed. I was aware of the TPT test being different from other blades I have honed with them, but never gave it a thaught when confronted with this issue. If Gary is right, then there really isn't an issue at all, just something to add to the experience library..... again.

Thanks,

Ray
08-13-2009, 04:55 PM
gary haywood

It baffled me i even took a shave ready razor two infact i honed them on the 1k n and it would'nt shave arm any more both of them. Thats when i went back to dmt1200 guess what they felt realy sticky sharp so i went back to 1k and they felt dull at this point i was going to sell the naniwas.I spoke to steve at invisable edge and he said to me thats exactly what would happen but he said by the time you hit 8k your razor will feel mega sharp and i said yes it does. So if i get a dull razor now with no bevel i hone untill i carn't slide my thumb up the edge then i've got my bevel even the tnt does'nt drag like it would of dmt1200. I then go to 3k i did the circles 40 each side then 10 x's same on 5k 10 laps on 8k 10 12k by the 8k tpt should be realy there and 12k even so 10 laps on cro or what ever worked realy well .
08-13-2009, 04:55 PM
gssixgun

STOP !!!!!! honing

Take a breather from this razor and hone another...

When you go back to this one start at the beginning and stay there until it feels right then progress straight though the stones, strop and test shave, see what happens...

Checking for a lost temper, is one of the hardest things there is, look for clues though at the pivot of the scales, melted marks or new scales....

Was away from the keyboard and missed most of the great suggestions above....
08-13-2009, 09:54 PM
rayman

Solved

:)

Gary,
You were absolutly spot on!!! I took the blade and did a pyramid, then 8k to 12k etc. etc. thru stropping and WOW! Incredible edge. This was a great catch on your part. Thank You, Thank You, Thank You.

Ray
08-13-2009, 11:41 PM
VeeDubb65

Quote:

Originally Posted by rayman

Does anyone have any idea what the heck is going on here?

Ray

I had a very similar issue while honing last night, but I knew exactly what caused it and was just waiting for it to happen.

I wanted to see how many razors I could actually hone before I needed to re-lap my hones. It turns out that for me, using the 1,4,8, and 16k shaptons with a pyramid at the 4k/8k level, I can hone 5 razors. After that, they will seem to get sharper, and then suddenly the edge will fail as though I had lifted the spine.

Are your stones properly lapped?
08-14-2009, 07:26 AM
gary haywood

I pm lynn about the same problem and he said i should carry on using the dmt as it probably suited me better than naniwa 1k but it was steve at invisable edge who gave me advice so thanks to him it solved both how issues.
08-14-2009, 07:32 AM
gary haywood

Quote:

Originally Posted by VeeDubb65

I had a very similar issue while honing last night, but I knew exactly what caused it and was just waiting for it to happen.

I wanted to see how many razors I could actually hone before I needed to re-lap my hones. It turns out that for me, using the 1,4,8, and 16k shaptons with a pyramid at the 4k/8k level, I can hone 5 razors. After that, they will seem to get sharper, and then suddenly the edge will fail as though I had lifted the spine.

Are your stones properly lapped?

I lapped mine too many times and i still found the tpt felt duler on 1k than the dmt1200 which felt mega shrp thats where it threw me out and that s where it would od cofused rayman because i could go back to dmt and my edge felt sharp then i'd go to 1knaniwa just to compare and the egde felt duller even though it was'nt its just a differant feeling on tpt when you hit 8k the edge realy turns sharp thats what i found any way.And steve who sold me hones said he found the same and he hones alot of razors
08-14-2009, 03:49 PM
rayman

Quote:

Originally Posted by VeeDubb65

I had a very similar issue while honing last night, but I knew exactly what caused it and was just waiting for it to happen.

I wanted to see how many razors I could actually hone before I needed to re-lap my hones. It turns out that for me, using the 1,4,8, and 16k shaptons with a pyramid at the 4k/8k level, I can hone 5 razors. After that, they will seem to get sharper, and then suddenly the edge will fail as though I had lifted the spine.

Are your stones properly lapped?

Steve,
I have found that my Nani's will do no more than 4 razors before they need relapped. These things cut so well, and fill up with swarf quickly. Gary is correct too in pointing out that the feedback from the edge while using the 3k/5k combination for a pyramid, is not consistant with other stones, but after coming off the 8k the edge indicates an incredably sharp feeling using the TPT test. When moving up from the pyramid, the 8k and 12k nani's usually don't require more than 10 to 15 strokes to produce the final edge.

Ray
08-14-2009, 06:11 PM
gary haywood

I'm glad some one else has noticed this because i actualy thought i had some faulty hones i was even going to send my 1k back for steve to hone on just to see if he found the 1k was'nt right but now i no and the more i have used them the more i like them i used the norton 4k 8k and its agreat hone for any one from a pro to a novice but even of 4k norton after my 1200 dmt i found 4k n felt sticky sharp in a differant way but after i set bevel i new 40 laps and 15 on 8k would always work then followed by my bbw/coti gave me good consistant shaves . With naniwas i find they also work well in a differant way but the shine they put on bevel is amazing even from 3k the bevel shines by 5k even more so 8k and 12k you can see your face in the bevel and the scratch pattern looks so even and faint.