Xs and rolling Xs

I don't have enough experience to be certain, but what I'm finding is that I have to do a rolling X on most of the older bades I'm honing.

A few, mostly new razors seem to do fine with a straight X or a 30-45 degree X. But I'm working through a number of older, good-quality razors (Bengall, Reynolds, Rodgers, various Solingen brands) now, and I find that the Magic Marker almost invariably will not get wiped off the edge of the bevel along the entire length unless I do a rolling X. Most indicate a mild bow in the blade -- on one side, only the belly touches the hone, and on the opposite side only the toe and the heel touch the hone.

I know that Lynn favors a 30-45-degree X pattern. Others tell me that this should handle the great majority of blades with irregular edges. But I am not finding that to be the case. Am I missing something?

You articulated that problem very well but nobody who might know the secret remedy to your problem seems to want to respond. I have run into these situations also and recently I have honed a Dovo #98 Pearlex ( brand new ) that I found to be warped.

I took a que from the old standard barber manual ( find the PDF version in a search ) and it says to put a slight smile in the blade edge by pressing more on the toe for a few strokes and pressing more on the heel for a few strokes until the edge width is more consistent along the entire length of the edge. This method worked for my particular problem on the Dovo 98 and it now shaves satisfactorily.

I also have a Prima Silver Steel that has an even more pronounced warp and I am still working on that edge. Dovo is nolonger my favorite manufacturer.

Hopefully someone will respond to you with a different or better remedy for your problem. Jerry

My friend… this is one of those topics that is discussed weekly on this forum.

What you have is a typical blade with a smile or a slight warp or both… it is so common that I believe we can safely accept as normal. However for someone new, honing these blades can be “frustrating” and seem to defy logic.

In a perfect world, your stone will be perfectly flat, the razor will be perfectly flat (and straight), and thus the entire edge will touch the surface of the hone “at the same time. “. Then you do straight back and forth strokes and the edge will sharpen up quickly…but this rarely happens even with newly manufactured blades.

In addition, vintage blades often have smiles… smiles are NORMAL for blades that were manufactured that way, and I believe the reason for smiles is; a “built in” scathe. A scathe cuts faster and cleaner than a straight edge… great if you are a barber on a busy Friday and clients with itchy, “week long” beards, impatiently waiting to be served.

If you have a smiley blade, the entire edge will not touch the hone at the same time… that is, the middle will touch the hone but the heel and the toe will be off the hone, so you have to compensate for the smile by rocking the blade during the stoke to allow all parts of the edge to contact the hone at some point of the stroke. Of course the means that while the toe is touching the hone, the heel is not, and vice versa.

If you have a warped blade then things are quite different, a rocking stroke will not sharpen it properly. In fact if you rock a warped blade it will only sharpen from one side of the bevel, the other side will not contact the stone… Let me explain; if you rest the blade on the top of the hone you will see the middle of the edge touch the hone, but the heel and the toe will be off the hone (like a smiling blade), and you can easily rock the blade, no problem there. However when you flip the blade, this time the heel and the toe touch the hone but the middle is off the hone … no matter how much rocking you do, the middle of the blade will not touch the hone when the blade is on this side. And if you try to hone such a blade with a straight back and forth stroke the edge may eventually develop a frown (opposite of a smile… this is bad) and uneven hone were (not so bad but visually unappealing)

So to compensate you have to work near the edge of the hone (the long end) and concentrate contact near the edge of the surface of the hone… this allows the edge of the hone to “reach in” and contact the middle of the blade that would be off the hone on that side during the stroke. It is like only using a 1 inch strip of the long side of the hone close to the edge of the working surface of the hone. If you have a single grit hone (not a combo) you could use the side of the hone as it is narrower or you could use a narrower hone and it will do the job just as well.
This will work if your blade has both a warp and a smile.

Now some folks will suggest you keep honing until the blade straightens out, I believe this will work too… if the blade is only slightly warped… again, you will end up with uneven bevels (some parts wider the others) and the razor will shave just as well as any other… but may not be visually appealing.

If your blade has a frown... then you may need to "re-profile" the edge. re-profiling a razor's edge falls under repair or restoring a razor, and is best discussed as another topic.

Oh this is a page full but I hope this helps some.

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Originally Posted by mrsell63

You articulated that problem very well but nobody who might know the secret remedy to your problem seems to want to respond. I have run into these situations also and recently I have honed a Dovo #98 Pearlex ( brand new ) that I found to be warped.

I took a que from the old standard barber manual ( find the PDF version in a search ) and it says to put a slight smile in the blade edge by pressing more on the toe for a few strokes and pressing more on the heel for a few strokes until the edge width is more consistent along the entire length of the edge. This method worked for my particular problem on the Dovo 98 and it now shaves satisfactorily.

I also have a Prima Silver Steel that has an even more pronounced warp and I am still working on that edge. Dovo is nolonger my favorite manufacturer.

Hopefully someone will respond to you with a different or better remedy for your problem. Jerry

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Yes your right i have dovo pealex and prima klang both brand new i just brought a ti even that one side is flat and the side the last inch does'nt touch the hone its crazy there all as bad i have nearly 30 razor restores and new ones the new ones are worse.

I use marker and make sure you ajust your stroke to water in front of the edge. I prefer to roll acordingly to how bad the razor is. Flat x pattern will work on the middle sections as the heal comes of hone i also use enought pressure to keep edge down just by twisting forward slightly.

If marker is just left along cutting edge you just have a double bevel just hone untill gone. The same thing still iritates me now. first thing i do now is put marker on new razor athew laps on my finest stone if its removed i will shave if not i will rehone it untill marker and bevel are good for me.

I have little to add to Smythe's great explanations 2 posts above.
Except maybe one thing: a warp can come in 2 severities:
Let's look at an illustration out of the wiki:

http://straightrazorpalace.com/srpwi...503px-Warp.jpg

A. the warp still allows for the bevel tip to exist between both bevel boundaries. In a perfectly straight blade, the bevel tip develops right in the middle of these boundaries (case 1 in the drawing). With a slight warp, the tip will shift towards the concave side (the bevel will become narrower on that side - Smythe described it as uneven bevels). Once the bevel is fully developed that way, it doesn't bother you anymore and from there on the razor can be honed as is. (case 2 in the drawing)

B. If the warp is so outspoken that it no longer allows for the bevel tip to exist between the boundaries, then this must be considered a true defect. A new razor in such condition should go back to the factory and be replaced, imo. It can still be sharpened though, but requires different tactics than what I described above. On a narrow hone, and I'm talking 1.5" or less here, the edge is allowed to follow whatever warped curve the blade has. (case 3 in the drawing) Imagine that you'd have to sharpen the rim of a round tube: to sharpen on the inside, you 'd need a narrow hone, right? A severe warp, is in essence the same. Per Smythe's recommendation, concentrate your action at the edge of the hone: it is a great way to emulate a narrow hone.

Now, and this is important: if you (or the manufacturer) puts a smiling edge on a blade, there is no longer the need to use a narrow hone. Throughout the rolling stroke that you have to use to follow the smile, only a small portion of the edge is in contact with the hone. Therefor, the effect is just the same as when you were using a narrow hone. In a smiling curve, the hone is much more able to follow whatever warping deviation a blade has. (I even suspect that is part of the reason many of these vintage razors carry a smile in the first place. You're much more likely to run into trouble with existing warp on a straight edge.)

I was planning to write a few lines, in support of Smythe's post. Turns out to be more than a few lines.:o

Bart.

Bart, you just saved me a bunch of time. My search skills leave much to be desired, so I started drawing diagrams last night but was so tired I fell asleep.
Now this morning I see you have found better illustrations in the Wiki… much appreciated my friend.

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Originally Posted by smythe

Bart, you just saved me a bunch of time. My search skills leave much to be desired, so I started drawing diagrams last night but was so tired I fell asleep.
Now this morning I see you have found better illustrations in the Wiki… much appreciated my friend.

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IIRC Bart put those illustrations in the Wiki originally so he knew where to look. You did a great job explaining the solutions to honing a smiling and/or warped blade smythe and Bart too of course.

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Originally Posted by Bart

...You're much more likely to run into trouble with existing warp on a straight edge.)

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I think you are right

So blades with some degree of warpage (and/or smiles) are not unusual -- which has been my experience. And using the rolling X along the side of the hone (the extreme right 1.5" or so-- which is what I've been doing) is the technique to deal with it.

I guess what confused me is that I was told (did not hear/see Him say it) that Lynn felt a 30-45 degree X pattern was the best way to deal with these, and that was not my experience.

Thanks to everyone who responded. BTW -- got my first coticule today (fr Jim at VB)! Another adventure begins....

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Originally Posted by pcb01

So blades with some degree of warpage (and/or smiles) are not unusual -- which has been my experience. And using the rolling X along the side of the hone (the extreme right 1.5" or so-- which is what I've been doing) is the technique to deal with it.

Not a necessity to use narrow hones, it is easier but honestly I rarely go to mine and most of my honing is on restores...


I guess what confused me is that I was told (did not hear/see Him say it) that Lynn felt a 30-45 degree X pattern was the best way to deal with these, and that was not my experience.


It does if you actually use that technique the right way , in fact this might be the easiest to master... You need to watch the NC meet-up webcast IIRC I show how to do this the right way on there....


Thanks to everyone who responded. BTW -- got my first coticule today (fr Jim at VB)! Another adventure begins....

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This is where having certain sets of stones helps with restoring razors, you can use just about anything you want when things go right, but when things go wrong I still want a good solid 1k to sort it out....

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Originally Posted by pcb01

So blades with some degree of warpage (and/or smiles) are not unusual -- which has been my experience. And using the rolling X along the side of the hone (the extreme right 1.5" or so-- which is what I've been doing) is the technique to deal with it.

I guess what confused me is that I was told (did not hear/see Him say it) that Lynn felt a 30-45 degree X pattern was the best way to deal with these, and that was not my experience.

Thanks to everyone who responded. BTW -- got my first coticule today (fr Jim at VB)! Another adventure begins....

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Reading one particular quote by Lynn," I typically use a 45 degree angle when honing wedges, smiling blades or older razors that have really uneven spine wear."

Lynn mentions that he typically hones wedges and smiling blades with a 45 I don't think that means that he always does. If the blade has a smile or a warp to the point where the 45 approach isn't enough for the edge to make contact with the hone then obviously whoever is doing the honing will have to compensate for it by altering their stroke.

Actually, I prefer a 45 degree angle for warped, frowned, smiley or razors with a significant amount of hone wear. The 45 degree angle using both circles and X strokes is what has been the most successful for me.

Although the rolling X may work for some in any of it's variations, it is a stroke that new guys can really screw up and get poor results. I have used a rolling X with varying degrees of success and it is something that will work, but I am always concerned with lifting any part of the razor during a honing stroke.

Different strokes..........:)

Lynn

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Originally Posted by Lynn

Actually, I prefer a 45 degree angle for warped, frowned, smiley or razors with a significant amount of hone wear. The 45 degree angle using both circles and X strokes is what has been the most successful for me.

Although the rolling X may work for some in any of it's variations, it is a stroke that new guys can really screw up and get poor results. I have used a rolling X with varying degrees of success and it is something that will work, but I am always concerned with lifting any part of the razor during a honing stroke.

Different strokes..........:)

Lynn

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Forgive the newb question, but: What is angled 45 degrees, exactly? Do you mean you are lifting the spine off the hone to a 45-degree angle? (Akin to sharpening a knife?)

Or is the spine flat on the hone, but the toe + heel of the blade are angled 45 degrees from the back of the hone like this: / ?

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Originally Posted by Basset

Or is the spine flat on the hone, but the toe + heel of the blade are angled 45 degrees from the back of the hone like this: / ?

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It means a 45 degree angle relative to the hone with the blade flat on the hone. If it were not a smiler or a warped or worn spine it would be at 90 degrees. There is some individual variation on that among honers but that is what Lynn describes here in Lynn Abrams On Honing in the SRP Wiki.

I've tryed the 45 degree angle i carn't seem to get it to work as good as the rolling x lynn point about screwing up edge is very true because there is a nack to this but i find i get on with this method very well i always keep my spine flat to the hone with the roll and i do rolling x and i also do the stroke at 45 degree angle same thing but i start with heal down then finish toe slightly raized if needed. Practice with an old razor.

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

It means a 45 degree angle relative to the hone with the blade flat on the hone. If it were not a smiler or a warped or worn spine it would be at 90 degrees. There is some individual variation on that among honers but that is what Lynn describes here in Lynn Abrams On Honing in the SRP Wiki.

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Just to be clear: you mean with the spine flat on the hone as well?

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Originally Posted by Basset

Just to be clear: you mean with the spine flat on the hone as well?

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When honing a razor the spine is always on the hone. Even in the rolling x the portion of the blade that is being sharpened as the blade is pulled across the hone is touching the hone. Spine and that portion of the edge directly across from it are touching the hone.

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

When honing a razor the spine is always on the hone. Even in the rolling x the portion of the blade that is being sharpened as the blade is pulled across the hone is touching the hone. Spine and that portion of the edge directly across from it are touching the hone.

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So then the idea is to keep the entire blade flat on the hone, but angled 45 degrees. Like this:

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p...n/DSC05320.jpg

And either do circles at this angle (I think I saw Ken Rup doing something like that in one of the vids recently posted) . .

and /or

complete a curved X stroke across the hone.

That sound right? Hope so. Because I've picked up quite a few antique finds with smiles, and that rolling stroke (lifting the spine as you move through the stroke) looks way too difficult.

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Originally Posted by Basset

Just to be clear: you mean with the spine flat on the hone as well?

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Jimmy just answered this also, but I am going to take it one step farther,,,

Every single video and picture of the rolling x is an over exaggerated example because in the true stroke you can't really see what is happening... the stroke should probably be re-named to the "rolling pressure stroke", because this is what you are really doing, you roll the pressure to the edge, from the heel to the toe... you are not actually picking the spine up (I hope)... This is also why some of us advocate the heel forward X stroke for smilers, it is actually an easier stroke to learn and master, if you think it is not working, try a slightly stronger angle, you can also roll the pressure on this stroke BTW...

Here is the only true statement on honing, "If you push the edge equally across the hone it will give you a sharp edge" the only question is how to do that from heel to toe equally....If you get in the early habit of watching that ripple of water as the edge moves down the hone, honing becomes so much easier.... If the ripple is not moving equally down the edge something is not working right...


Edit: I have been using a slight heel forward stroke on every single blade since I started sharpening razors....I have always thought it gives a better cutting edge... (No proof of this)

Yes, your photo is correct except what is being sharpened is flat .... spine and edge directly across from that portion of the spine that is on the hone.

i

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Yes, your photo is correct except what is being sharpened is flat .... spine and edge directly across from that portion of the spine that is on the hone.

Here is another video of Lynn honing at a recent get together. I can't recall off the top of my head if he is doing the 45 degree thing on any of it but he does demonstrate the circles and on up through that.

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The photo may be deceptive. The spine and blade are perfectly flat in the pic.

Also, your link doesn't go to a Lynn video; it goes to a thread about "getting to 11" with a hone. No vids in that thread.

Whoops ! I was wrong once before..... try this link here. :)