A Honing Lesson from my barber

So today I took my rock and steel to the barber shop. My barber had agreed to give me some lessons in honing, and so I took him up on it.

It wasn't earth shattering, what he taught me--he focused on technique, strokes and pressure and whatnot. It helped me, indeed, but there isn't a lot I can share here except for some facts about honing Kamisori.

He raised a HEAVY slurry on his Kiita, really digging the nagura in there, and started to hone. First off, he said you start with your body position--the hone on a table, your body centered above it with your eyes aligned with the center of the hone (which should be nice and long). This position helps regulate the length and proportion of your strokes.

Put the razor on the hone at a slight angle, handle leading, Omote ("flat" side, NO kanji side, etc) down. Place the first two fingers of your left hand in the hollow of the blade ("ura" or Kanji side up) and put pressure on the blade--not a lot, but some. The right hand on the handle is only for balance--no pressure at all from the right hand. In that position, do about TEN back and forth strokes--Up and down. Then, flip the razor (Kanji side DOWN now) and do ONE spine leading stroke.

If the razor needs more sharpening, continue that pattern until it's done.

My barber says he can tell a good edge by looking. He insists you go PAST mirrored until it looks a little dark--black? He also says the HHT is a good test...

SO, I trust his skill in the maintenance of edges. I've shaved with a few of his edges, blades he's used for decades, and they are all exceptionally good. Smooth and sharp. Of course, all of his edges would have been MAINTAINED, I doubt he's done much bevel setting, (But I could be wrong...He does sharpen other people' blades, scissors too, and he says they are often in terrible shape...).

So that is how I will hone Kamisori from now on. No controversy for me--he says it, I will do it, and gladly.

Oh, and one more thing. He said when I hone three razors to his satisfaction, he'll give me his Kiita (Which cost more than $1000 40 years ago...it's at least 12"x3"x2". HUGE)...So practice time is here!!!!

That's awesome - the whole thing! The barber taking time, and offering a prize for satisfaction - Can I send in 3 razors?:)

Even though you described it quite well, I would love to see some pictures of the position of the fingers and razor....

That's a great story Grasshopper! Thanks for sharing. The prise at the end would only be in a dream! Good luck.

Fantastic! Sounds like a lovely chap. I suggest you send three razors off to Lynn, quick as you can. That rock can be yours within a fortnight!

He is a great guy. This lesson was actually only a small part of the day--it was a really, really good day at the barbershop, and I'm writing it all up on my blog as we speak.

I'll work on some pictures, I happen to have a few kamisori that need honing so it'll be a good time to do it.

Great story Jim. You're a lucky guy to be working with him.

Yeah, a great story. I also got some instruction from my barber but nothing as significant as this. I'm a little confused though. Ten strokes up and down and then flip it? Does this mean one stroke blade leading, one stroke spine leading, up to ten? Also, (and I'm revealing some ignorance here) what it Kamisor? What is Kiita?

That is nice barber you have in there Jim. Good luck getting that stone. I am sure you can do it.

Thanks guys, it was a really fun day. In case you didn't read my blog, he also gave me another Iwasaki that he had forgotten he had...incredible, this man's generosity.

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Originally Posted by leadduck

Yeah, a great story. I also got some instruction from my barber but nothing as significant as this. I'm a little confused though. Ten strokes up and down and then flip it? Does this mean one stroke blade leading, one stroke spine leading, up to ten? Also, (and I'm revealing some ignorance here) what it Kamisor? What is Kiita?

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Yep, edge leading then spine leading, back and forth without leaving the stone. Then you flip the razor and do one spine leading stroke. This is only for the Japanese style razors, the Kamisori, because they have an assymetrical blade and bevel. I wouldn't try it with your regular old straights...

Kiita is a type of natural Japanese whetstone, very very good for fine edged blades. Kamisori is the Japanese style razor, like this:

Thank you very much for sharing the lessons that this generous barber gave you. I am going to try his procedure as described, although I do not have any Japanese stones. The principles sound as though they would work for any water hone that raises a slurry. Do you think it might work using a large coticule, or a long Thuringian? One thing I found unusual was the single reverse stroke with the spine leading. Is this stroke to remove a burr or wire edge? I have not encountered one (to my knowledge, anyway) while honing straight razors before. I mostly use a coticule, which might explain it. Thanks again!

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Originally Posted by Croaker

Thank you very much for sharing the lessons that this generous barber gave you. I am going to try his procedure as described, although I do not have any Japanese stones. The principles sound as though they would work for any water hone that raises a slurry. Do you think it might work using a large coticule, or a long Thuringian? One thing I found unusual was the single reverse stroke with the spine leading. Is this stroke to remove a burr or wire edge? I have not encountered one (to my knowledge, anyway) while honing straight razors before. I mostly use a coticule, which might explain it. Thanks again!

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I have no idea...and you never know till you try! I do know that the Shapton 12k/15K has been recommended by others, and he said that would be fine...no need for a nagura there.

As for the single back stroke to remove a burr, I imagine that is something like it. My uncle by marriage, who is also a barber/stylist (and a buddhist monk!), though not as traditional nor as old as my current barber, said not to hone the back side at all...it's a mystery!

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Originally Posted by JimR

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My barber says he can tell a good edge by looking. He insists you go PAST mirrored until it looks a little dark--black?

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I find this very interesting. I've observed that dark edge on some razors I have honed and didn't know what to make of it. I sort of thought I had went 'past it'. Appears I was doing alright after all. I'll have to try for that deliberately and see what it shaves like.

Thanks for the update Thanks especially for sharing the honing methods. I have never had a Japanese straight and don't foresee getting one but you never know.

Jim. I remember a previous post about your friendship with this barber. I think he has already given you one stone ? You are a lucky man and it couldn't happen to a nicer guy.:tu.

From what I read it sounds like he is offering you an apprenticeship!

While concentrating on using mine completely backwards, and re-sharpening a few times
(to see where it'd go) with a single stroke on the ura; the shave started to fall off.

Which direction was the last before flipping?

I have found finishing any razor with a few backstrokes ups the smooth factor - I hesitate to say- but; greatly. Shaving off 1k shapton is far smoother when finished with a couple back stokes on each side. Which to my mind demonstrates an amplified version of what can happen on finish stones; where it is less apparent.

So a single backstroke makes very good sense. I have a book on Japanese carpentry, its sharpening instructions say the finish stones do not produce a bur; which goes in hand with coticules, etc, not over-honing. Honing on one side the effect is there, but you'll not feel it with your fingertip. One stroke to plane that off makes sense.

What about stropping? ;) Thanks Jim. I feel like I should give you something too

This is a very cool story very informative and an it reminds me of how much teachers desire a good student. Also I feel jealous since you will probably one day get a very very very nice stone, I wish I could find a teacher that nice.:boohoo:

Hi Jim,
Thanks for sharing that story. It is almost like part of me was in Japan when you told of you and your barber. True wealth is being able to experience a moment like that, generosity comes when you share it! Sounds like you are going to be a honemiester at least by your barber's standards.:)
MIKE

Well, I tried the system and it works! I took a Boker 20th Century whose shave quality had started to fall to the level of honing needed. I honed exactly as described, including standing up instead of sitting down. I used a heavy slurry on my 8X3 coticule. It turned gray about the 3rd stroke, so metal was being removed. I had a hard time stopping at 10 laps, but did it anyway. I did the reverse stroke once on each side, after the edge leading strokes were done. All strokes were heel leading. Then, I simply rinsed the blade and honed it 50 laps on a Llama leather strop and tested it on hair. No CroOx or anything else. Wow.....hairs literally crumbled away at a touch of the edge, anyhere. The edge did not get the darkening I was hoping for, though. Finally, I shaved, and got an excellent and very smooth BBS result with 3 passes. This is as good as this Boker has ever shaved for me, and possibly a little better. Thanks! I am left with the nagging feeling that I should have gotten the darkened edge, though, and have no clue how to get there with a coticule. Your story is VERY much appreciated and I plan to continue experimenting with other stones, using your technique. Thank your barber friend for me, if you get a chance!

Thanks for sharing this story with us. They are few and far between in today's world.

I'm not sure whether it's an issue of us of younger generations not wanting to learn, or less "masters" willing to teach.

As I suspected these razors sharpen just like the traditional Japanese kitchen knives. One thing I can't stress enough is to not grind down the "Kenji" side to hard, you want that concave to stay concave, not flatten it out.

Good point I have seen that hollow go away on knives.

Jim this is icing on cake compared to last one with translation. Another bang up job :Beer:

There's nothing more awesome than being able to hang out and chill with cool barber.

Quick Q? I'm a little confused I thought it was 3-1 ratio? With 3 strokes being concave side ( kanji up ) and 1 on convex?

BTW did you palm stroke it to remove the bur or was there none to begin with?

Thanks,

Ivan

Thank you for sharing your story.

I aspire to be a man like your barber, he truly is the best kind of man.

Wow, how cool!

you better get crackin, I want to see pictures of the kiita :D

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

I find this very interesting. I've observed that dark edge on some razors I have honed and didn't know what to make of it. I sort of thought I had went 'past it'. Appears I was doing alright after all. I'll have to try for that deliberately and see what it shaves like.

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Me too. On the finial polishing stone I try for the point where I can see only Black Ice (my term) for the edge under my microscope, or where the edge just seems to disappear to my naked eye. The razors I get to this point are my very sharpest.

Interestingly enough that honing technique sounds strangely familiar to me. It was how I was taught to hone a plane iron, by an old Redneck. Right down to the stand leaning slightly over the hone and the two fingers pressure, 10 strokes down and back, then backhone off the burr with one on the flat.

I've got a particularly stubborn razor sitting on the workbench right now, I might have to give this a go. 10 down and back one one the back flip 10 down and back one on the back, next higher stone.........

@JImR:
I honed my Iwasaki the way you described and I had a very good shave this morning. :)
As there had not been a consensus on how to hone a kamisori I had always honed it as one hones western style razors. That worked well too but this might be even better, I don't know yet.

How does your barber strop his kamisoris? The same way we do or does he also use a 10:1 ratio?

Thanks for bumping this, I forgot I'd some unanswered questions :P

Also I'm curious why the Tosuke is 3:1 whereas Iwasaki is 10:1? I don't have Tosuke so I'm basing on pics I've seen but they are indeed different. I didn't realize the drastic honing change. But one might say it's dependent on condition of razor.

Reading Jim's OP I get the impression the 10:1 or rather 20:1 ratio applies to all kamisori.

Basically it is a 20:1 ratio as you go up and down the hone 10 times and do a single stroke spine leading with the kanji side of the blade.

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Originally Posted by Kees

Reading Jim's OP I get the impression the 10:1 or rather 20:1 ratio applies to all kamisori.

Basically it is a 20:1 ratio as you go up and down the hone 10 times and do a single stroke spine leading with the kanji side of the blade.

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Yeah. I really think it's like anything--there's no ONE way to do it, but they all have something in common: more honing on the Omote, less on the Ura. As to why, well, it's not like honing is a science! Everyone's got their own take on things, and not just in Japan.

Kees, I'm glad you're getting success with this! Like I said, it's just the way I was taught, and I've seen the results for myself, so this is the way I do it.

And Kees, he strops without any ratio, but he strops very little...and finishes on his arm!

Happy honing!

Lynn is getting good results with the 20:1 ratio as well: http://straightrazorpalace.com/japan...tml#post479927

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Originally Posted by JimR

And Kees, he strops without any ratio, but he strops very little...and finishes on his arm!

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Hi Jim.

When you say you barber strops very little, can you quantify that? For me with a Western straight I used to only do about 20 passes on leather daily, but I've read of some people doing 80 passes on linen and then 80 on each of a couple of types of leather - which to me seems pretty excessive.

What would you recommend for me stropping when my Kamisori and my Kanoyama 10k arrives, for both the canvas and leather sides?

Cheers :)

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Originally Posted by Steelforge

Hi Jim.

When you say you barber strops very little, can you quantify that? For me with a Western straight I used to only do about 20 passes on leather daily, but I've read of some people doing 80 passes on linen and then 80 on each of a couple of types of leather - which to me seems pretty excessive.

What would you recommend for me stropping when my Kamisori and my Kanoyama 10k arrives, for both the canvas and leather sides?

Cheers :)

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I'd just say, strop as you see fit!

Apparently, according to Naomi-san and my barber, the linen is viewed as a "cleaner", it removes oil and cream, etc. from the edge before you hit the leather. And as for my barber stropping "very little", maybe 10-20 laps on leather. Just a few when he feels like it, apparently.

As for what's best for your razor, no one knows but you!

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Originally Posted by JimR

I'd just say, strop as you see fit!

Apparently, according to Naomi-san and my barber, the linen is viewed as a "cleaner", it removes oil and cream, etc. from the edge before you hit the leather. And as for my barber stropping "very little", maybe 10-20 laps on leather. Just a few when he feels like it, apparently.

As for what's best for your razor, no one knows but you!

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Thanks Jim, that sounds fairly similar to my old routine so I'll stick with that. :)

Oh, thank God someone sees stropping the way I do. Seven laps is all I usually do. Any more and I'm convinced its done only to make me feel better about myself and make me late for work (which isn't such a bad thing) :)

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Originally Posted by JimR

I'd just say, strop as you see fit!

Apparently, according to Naomi-san and my barber, the linen is viewed as a "cleaner", it removes oil and cream, etc. from the edge before you hit the leather. And as for my barber stropping "very little", maybe 10-20 laps on leather. Just a few when he feels like it, apparently.

As for what's best for your razor, no one knows but you!

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Originally Posted by AFDavis11

Oh, thank God someone sees stropping the way I do. Seven laps is all I usually do. Any more and I'm convinced its done only to make me feel better about myself and make me late for work (which isn't such a bad thing) :)

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I was hoping that a bunch of linen would help push my wakamisori edge over the top. It has not. It did make some small improvement.

I apologize but some of your inputs have melded with Mr. Parkers in my mind but I have found a great resource all the same. Many a day I strop none at all, or quite minimally when I do. Thanks