My first honing experience

Good morning all,

So I first hone my razor following Bart's article on Yellow Coticule + BBW

I first hone with the yellow coticule with a slurry until I pass the TNT test, then I switch to the BBW with a slurry and finally I polish with the coticule again but with water only.

My dificulties arises when it comes to the BBW with slurry. I cannot see the steel mixing the slurry and water, and thus I cannot determine if the hone really cuts the steel. I use this stone with no presure on the blade, I don't know if I should put some pressure on the blade as I hone. After around 50 strokes or so, I start diluting the slurry with water every 10 strokes until the slurry is gone.

After that, I perform a TPT test, and quite frankly, I don't know if I pass it or not. Since I have no experience on TPT, I cannot tell if I pass the test or not. From what I read on the wiki, I do not think I pass it, but because I was not sure enough, I jumped to the polish fase.

In there, using the coticule with only water I could see how the hone was cutting the steel, and I was aplying very light pressure on the blade, merely acompaning the blade as I was doing the X strokes.

After that, I did a TPT test again. It felt more sharp, but not really much different than with the BBW. HHT test failed by all means.

I did a go to the shave yesterday night, and I had the smoothest shave in many months. I did just a ATG shave and I ended up very satisfied of the razor. I did not have any pull and I got a very nice shave.

My worries now reside on the BBW stone. How much pressure should I use on the blade? Should I see how the stone is cutting the steel? I haave the sensation I could go from coticule with slurry to coticule with water and I would not feel the difference...

Thanks for any advice!

I think what it really comes down to at the end of the day is the shave. If you get a good shave, with no pull and irritation then you have a good edge!

From reading the Wiki, posts by experienced honemeisters and my own (fairly limited at this point) experience, I would say that you want to have very minimal pressure on the blade. Just the weight of the blade is enough! If you puts lots of pressure of the blade you will put deeper striations in the edge which might make your shave more uncomfortable. There is also the chance of bending the edge up under pressure, which will ruin it and then you're back to square one. Just let the stone do the work.

The tests like HHT and AHT seem to be very subjective. People with very fine hair will get different results to those with very thick coarse hair. Again, the consensus from what I've read seems to be that the best test is "Does it shave well?". If it does, great. If not, the edge needs some more work.

The Wiki has this to say about the TPT;

1. If the edge has a faint tickling sensation and just starts to grip onto your thumb pad then you are in the right neighbourhood for a shave test.
2. If the edge bites and grips your thumb pad relentlessly wanting to cut in and not let go, then the edge may be over honed.
3. If the edge tickles your thumb and feels like a very sharp knife with a good cutting edge then you are not sharp enough. This sensation is usually felt coming off a medium hone like a 4,000 grit water stone.


I've seen a few pictures of the BBW's and they are quite dark coloured which may make it difficult to see the metal particles that have been removed. I use Shapton ceramics and they are a white stone, and you can really see the swarf building up! Its probably just the colour of the stone and the slurry that makes it hard to see the particles. If the razor is dull and then after honing its sharp, then the BBW is removing metal!

I think, as long as you're getting a good durable edge that gives a comfortable shave then its fairly safe to say that you are doing things correctly!

PS: I dont want to go misleading anyone here, so if there are some more experienced honemeisters out there then please add to/ correct my advice. I'm more than man enough to take it and I`m not too proud to admit I`m wrong! :-)

Incidentally, do you like the edge the BBW gives you? I was wondering whether to get a small one as a touch up hone for travel.

Thanks for the advice!

I do not shave out of the BBW, but out of the coticule with water.

What I have found out with the BBW is that when I come out the coticule with slurry, the bevel is very groovy, but after the BBW it gets much more smooth.

Reading extensively this forum I read several times that it is not advisable to shave out of a BBW because is a 4K grit and some other higher grit hone is necessary to polish the edge.

When I come out of the BBW, i feel the TPT test to be like this:

3. If the edge tickles your thumb and feels like a very sharp knife with a good cutting edge then you are not sharp enough. This sensation is usually felt coming off a medium hone like a 4,000 grit water stone.

Should I get going on the BBW? Do I need to go back to coticule+slurry to get a better bevel?

You got a smooth shave from the razor! I wouldn't worry about it too much! I followed the advice in the wiki and did around 100 laps on a coticule with slurry, diluting to just water for the last few laps, around 100 laps on a BBW with slurry, diluting to a light slurry for the last few laps, then finished with around 100 laps on a coticule with just water. I tested the edge throughout to make sure it was even and then I tested by shaving with it. If I ever get a bad shave then I'll go back and try and work out where I went wrong, but otherwise I'll just keep doing what I'm doing.

I dont know much about the natural stones, but I was under the impression that the coticule is the higher grit and the BBW is the lower? If that is the case then you will want to start on the BBW with slurry and then water, then onto the coticule with slurry and then with water to get that progression from a coarse grit right up to a fine polishing finish.

Bart did a video on here somewhere where he honed a razor from dull to shave readyness all on the BBW with varying thicknesses of slurry, so it can be done! I cant find the video at the moment but it was a fairly recent post.

Basically, if your edge is dull you want to start on the lower grit stone(s) until you have a good bevel set, then move onto the higher grit polishing stones ONLY once you have that good foundation to move on from.

Otherwise you're just polishing a dull edge. It'll look all nice and shiny, but wont shave worth a damn...!

But I still think that if you're getting a good shave from whatever it is you're doing at the moment just keep doing that. Don't worry about the tests and all that jazz, the only true test is the shave test and if that gives good results for you then stick with it!

You said in your first post that you got a smooth and very nice shave, so it sounds like you have a good edge. Going back to the hones just risks overhoning and dulling the edge.

If it aint broke, dont fix it!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Stubear

I dont know much about the natural stones, but I was under the impression that the coticule is the higher grit and the BBW is the lower? If that is the case then you will want to start on the BBW with slurry and then water, then onto the coticule with slurry and then with water to get that progression from a coarse grit right up to a fine polishing finish.

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That is partly correct. A coticule is higher grit than the BBW, but when it comes to slurry, a coticule with slurry has lower grit than a BBW with slurry, that's why I start with the coticule w/ slurry

I followed a wiki post by Bart with a DMT + BBW w/ slurry + coticule w/ water. At the end of that article he states that a coticule w/ slurry can set a bevel as well because the slurry is very abrasive.

I am happy with the shave I got yesterday, really I am, but if I can get an even a smoother one, why not go for it?

My concern is that I think I am doing something wrong in the BBW (to few strokes maybe). The lack of a test to tell me to move to the polishing stone makes me wonder when is the right time. I do not want to overhone, but neither to underhone (does this word exist??)

I really do understand what you're saying. After all, thats the quest we are all on, to find the best possible shaving edge and attain that fabled BBS shave. I just think if you have an edge that shaves well and works for you then you should probably leave it at that. Just my $0.02..!

The reason I say that is that you might have already reached (or very nearly reached) the "optimum" sharpness for your blade, so any additional honing is either going to derive little additional benefit or overhone and ultimately degrade the edge. I dont want to to say "try this or that" and offer bad advice! When in doubt, call in the professionals!

So, if you really want to see how sharp your razor can get and are unsure of the tests and where the edge is at now then my advice would be to send it to a honemeister. That way you will avoid damaging the edge inadvertantly and it will clarify what a "shave ready edge" really is. Plus it provides a benchmark to aim for when you are honing yourself.

Hammett it seems to me that you are on the right path here. The smooth shave is what counts but like you I want it to be as good as it gets so I will try to push the envelope. What my friend Randydance taught me regarding the TPT was to take a new DE or SE blade and get the feel of what a sharp edge feels like alternately with the straight I am honing. It worked for me.

The way I understand it the BBW had larger garnets than the yollow and therefore cuts differently. At least I am pretty sure that is what Bart has posted in the past. In terms of honing on the bbw with slurry, I take and start to see if the blade will pop hair off the forearm without touching the skin.

Now you can also see if it will shave hair off the forearm touching the skin if you don't have many razors to hone or care whether you're going to be walking around with bald spots on your arm.

When I first got started honing many ebay specials people thought I had some sort of skin disease with all of the patches of hair gone on my arms and legs. Now I have gotten to where I can feel the edge grab the hair and I know where the sharpness is without actually cutting the hair.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

What my friend Randydance taught me regarding the TPT was to take a new DE or SE blade and get the feel of what a sharp edge feels like alternately with the straight I am honing. It worked for me.

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Thanks for this, it is just what I needed. Don't know why I didn't think of it before.

Mike

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

What my friend Randydance taught me regarding the TPT was to take a new DE or SE blade and get the feel of what a sharp edge feels like alternately with the straight I am honing. It worked for me.

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Excuse me, but since I am not a native English speaker... What does DE and SE stand for? (dumb question I know...)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

In terms of honing on the bbw with slurry, I take and start to see if the blade will pop hair off the forearm without touching the skin

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What should I do in the case hair does not pop up ? Continue honing? Revert to set bevel? This is actually what happens to me with the BBW

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

When I first got started honing many ebay specials people thought I had some sort of skin disease with all of the patches of hair gone on my arms and legs.

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I already have several bald spots in my left arm and both legs :P

I have 2 Straight. One cheap that I bought from a local store and the other is a vintage Solingen.

I don´t want to screw the Solingen, so I learn with the cheap one :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hammett

Excuse me, but since I am not a native English speaker... What does DE and SE stand for? (dumb question I know...)



What should I do in the case hair does not pop up ? Continue honing? Revert to set bevel? This is actually what happens to me with the BBW



I already have several bald spots in my left arm and both legs :P

I have 2 Straight. One cheap that I bought from a local store and the other is a vintage Solingen.

I don´t want to screw the Solingen, so I learn with the cheap one :)

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DE = double edge razor blade, SE= Single Edge razor blade such as a Gem.

I hone a razor until it pops hair. Some don't find this test useful but for me personally it indicates that the razor is shave ready or nearly so. As Lynn points out the shave is the true test.

Is your Solingen razor shave ready ? You might consider sending it out to a honemiester to make it so if it is not. This will give you something to shave with and something to compare your efforts to.

I have tryed all barts methods The yellow cuts faster than the blue i think there similar just one cuts quiker that being the yellow. I have shaved of the blue the shave was good and of the yellow a little better try it see what you think. you only start on on yellow with slurry if blade is realy dull to reset bevel hone and hone untill you can just shave arm or leg hair and your thumb grips the edge as you run along it and does'nt easily slide across with no grip.Then you can dilute down to water and then what i do is finish on 50 laps of water and strop and test see how it shaves. Then what i have done is 75 on blue dilute method then test shave of blue and then third shave do 50 on yellow water and test see what differance you can notice. I got good shave just of coti not sure if there was much differance of blue and yellow water it was hard to say but all three shaves were great then i added 20 laps on ch.5 and that added loads of glide. for touch ups i use bbw s then yellow water ch.5 or just yellow water chr.5.

Let's talk about slurry.

Belgian slurry (:) I mean the abrasive milk raised on top of a BBW or a Coticule) contains garnets. Garnets look like this:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...Garnet_cut.JPG

Garnets are very hard. Hard enough to scratch steel. A slurry is not only made of Ganets. It also contains water of course, and also a great deal of phylosilicates. Phylisilicates are minerals that are much softer than steel. They are what bonded the garnets together before they were abraded off the stone by rubbing with the slurry stone.
Small garnets can easily sink in the steel. Larger garnets can't sink so deep in the steel, because the honing pressure is more spread out over a wider surface area. Try scratching a table with a spoon. Now try the same with a fork (Don't send your wife or mother to me when you run into trouble over this important experiment) Back to the garnets: with the size of the segments that make the garnets being roughly the same, smaller garnets are less rounded than larger garnets. That makes smaller garnets more "spiky".
Conclusion: large garnets leave slightly wider but also more shallow scratches, while small garnets cut more aggressively and deeper.

Coticules contain a high concentration of small garnets: up to 40% of the entire volume of the rock.
BBWs contain a lower concentration of wider garnets: up to 25%

That makes BBW's slower than Coticules and if we are aiming for serious steel removal during the first stages of honing, the average Coticule will perform a great deal faster than any BBW. Hence, if the choice to do serious bevel correction is between Coticule and BBW, pick the Coticule.

Let' s talk some more about slurry.
The loose garnets in the slurry also abrade the very edge, while it plows through the fluid. The thicker the fluid, the higher the concentration of garnets (less water) and the more the thinest part of the edge deteriorates from the impact with the garnets. That is a dulling action. At the same time, the garnets remove steel from the bevel sides, which is a sharpening action. As long as the edge is not very sharp yet, the dulling effect is negligible, because the tip is not as fragile. When the edge becomes sharper, the tip becomes more fragile and more prone to "slurry deterioration". At a given point, there's a limit where the edge looses as much keenness as it gains. You could hone the razor into oblivion and not ever get a sharper edge than that limit. One of the advantages is that you'll never overhone a razor on a Belgian slurry. Not with normal pressure and regular razor honing methods, anyway.

At equal slurry thickness, a BBW with its lower concentration of less aggressive garnets, has a sharper limit than a Coticule.

Of course you could use thinner slurry on a Coticule, but for the inexperienced user it's still easier getting more keenness of a BBW with slurry than hitting the same level on a Coticule with thinner slurry. With experience it can be done, however, and the BBW becomes pretty redundant at that point.

When no slurry is used, but plain water instead, we get a different story. The garnets remain halfway or more embedded in the surface of the hone. A Coticule with its small garnets in higher concentration offers a very finely textured surface. The BBW, having more sparsely spread bigger garnets offers a less fine surface. Both hones become very slow. The BBW becomes so slow, that it seems to loose most of it's honing qualities. It almost behaves like a piece of marble. It seems to very slowly dull the edge rather than sharpening it any further. That's why I don't recommend diluting the slurry to plain water on a BBW.
But Coticules just keeps on going, albeit at an extremely slow rate.

No slurry, no slurry deterioration either.

Obviously the edge won't gain sharpness infinitely. As with any hone there still is a limit. That limit is defined by how deep the hone cuts into the steel. A hone that digs 0.5 micron into the steel will never define an edge thiner than those 0.5 micron. That's one good reason to use minimal pressure during the final stages of honing. Coticules on water are slow. They remove almost no steel with each honing stroke. For that they can define very sharp edges. But they are so slow that it takes ages to catch up if you weren't already at a very decent keenness when you decided to start working on water only.
A Coticule with water is a finishing hone. The majority of them can't be used to make up for much neglected keenness earlier on in the honing process.

Excuse me Hammett, for cluttering up your thread with all this theoretical wining.

Use a milk-like slurry on your Coticule. Don't allow the slurry to become much denser than that. Once you have a good bevel, that's sharp enough to shave arm hair, thin the slurry with an equal amount of water. Go on for about 100 laps. Again keep the consistency constant by adding a drop of water every now and then. You'll notice a big improvement in keenness, both in hair shaving abilities and at the TPT response. Next raise a thin slurry of about the same consistency on the BBW (err on the thin side). Do another 100 laps. Keep probing with the TPT, even if you don't really succeed in feeling the difference. It's there and in time your thumb will learn to read it.
Next rinse the razor and hones and finish with 100 laps on the Coticule with plain water. Keep probing with the TPT. My razors can pop a hanging hair at that point, but it must be a clean hair. Strop and shave.

Based on your shaving results, I'd say you did quite nice. I understand you feel in the dark a bit about some stages of your honing, but it just takes more experience to gain confidence in honing. It took me nearly 2 months of weekly frustration before I managed to successfully hone my first razor on about the same setup as yours.


Best regards,
Bart.

And that just about says it all!!!

Ray

OMFG

THAT is what I call an explanation. Everytime I read a post from you Bart, it's like meeting the master-of-the-universe-of-the-belgian-stones. I respectfully bow before you and your knowledge

Your explanation clarified loads of things for me and dark areas where I did not know what to do.

Many, many thanks!