I need a small stone for travelling that will approximate my Chinese 12k+ stone. I see a ton of 'em on eB*y, but don't which ones are on which end of the scale, abrasive-wise. Thanks
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I need a small stone for travelling that will approximate my Chinese 12k+ stone. I see a ton of 'em on eB*y, but don't which ones are on which end of the scale, abrasive-wise. Thanks
As I recall tilly from the other site sells a wide variety of barbers finishing hones on eboy which are small and would be what your looking for. I have several models like the peaches and cream, swattys, lautterjung, amalgamite. She sells under redtrader or something like that
here is her site:
http://redtrader99.com/hones.html
it looks like either itsapeach or the lithide
contact her, she'll know.
I emailed her about the itsapeech, but the more I think about it, I could just order the smaller thinner version of the Chinese 12k from woodcraft. It wouldn't be THAT much bigger, and maybe I can find some kind of cool leather sleeve or something to pack it in. We'll see what she says about the barber's hone. Where do the Franz Swaty hones fall in terms of grit?
Swatys are regarded as between 8000-10,000 grit.
I know there are two line Swatys and three line Swatys. Which were you referring to? I remember reading somewhere that the Swaty was more lik 12K. Does this sound at all likely to you?Quote:
Originally Posted by randydance062449
A Honemaster (barber hone), if you could find one, should easily approximate your Chinese 12 K. Additionally, with barber hones, using lather will produce a considerably finer grit result than using water.
Hal
Thanks. I have one of those.Quote:
Originally Posted by halwilson
BTW, have you ever heard of a Droescher water (barber) hone? I just got one and it came with a Nagura stone. I've never seen this type of barber hone before, but it feels a little coarse. Do the Japanese ones feel a little coarse or are they smooth, like the Honemaster?
Thanks guys, this is good stuff. Joe, could you explain two-line and three-line Swaty hones?
So far I have never seen a definitive analysis of the abrasive grain size used in barber hones nor the actual type of abrasive used.
We seem to be comparing the results to the modern hones whose grit size we have some informatio on.
In the case of classic barber hones I think we are talking about the effective rating as opposed to the actual grit size. Which is, in the end, what we are really interested in.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Lerch
From my point of view, the grit may not be as meaningful as two practical measures: the effective rating (maybe 5 levels) and the speed.Quote:
Originally Posted by randydance062449
For example Swatys are certainly fine hones but they're a lot faster than other fine hones. A few quick swipes can refresh a razor, but if I use one of the fine finishing hones, I need to work a lot harder. Just telling me that they're 10K doesn't tell me as much as they're very fine but fast.
I'm just learning about that myself. The 2 line is supposed to be coarser than the 3 line. What we're referring to is the cutout on one side where the company infor appears. Some have two lines of text and others 3.Quote:
Originally Posted by threeputt
BTW, you need to be aware of the speed differences between fine hones. The Swatys are fine but fast, perfect for refreshing a razor with a few swipes. THe finishing hones, like the Honemeister, are slow and, even though they may be the same grit, you get more control that way. Also whether you use a hone dry, with water, or with lather changes the speed of cut, offering you more control.
Before you do that you need to decide what you'll be doing when you travel. If you're going to work on razors, you'll need your whole set. But I suspect you just need something to refresh a razor, so you're not talking a about a slow Chinese stone but a quick Swaty (a few swipes and you're refreshed).Quote:
Originally Posted by threeputt
It would be just for touching up a razor or two while on the road. I wouldn't mind 10 minutes on a slow Chinese stone as opposed to 10 seconds on a Swaty, if it meant a finer edge. I'd be going straight to the strop after whatever stone it is, and I'd like to approximate my touch ups at home. How about a yellow Belgian coticule, a small one?
If you wanted to approximate what you do at home you would need a slow hone, but there are slow fine finishing barber hones that could do the job. The only reason you would go for one of those is price or convenience of use, for example if you could use one dry.Quote:
Originally Posted by threeputt
I gotta weigh in here threeput. I've been doing better and better on my waterstone technique, but the barber hone still eludes me. I don't know if you're familiar with the barber hones but if you're serious about MAKING SURE your razor stays keened up on the road, I think you're wise to consider a pasted paddle strop. I've been using a pocket flatbed myself and it's really a great finishing cutter which allows me to rely on my stropping technique.Quote:
Originally Posted by threeputt
Just my thoughts, donate the penny.
X
If you're interested in a good Swaty type hone for travelling, I'd recommend a Premier. It's much smaller than a traditional Swaty so it is easier to carry. It's intended for maintaining a razor that's just begun to lose its edge. Four or five light passes should be sufficient. Tilly sells these NOS for 15.00 USD.
Hal
I think I may have found what I was looking for, as long as it isn't TOO small for me to get the hang of. Snagged a Belgian coticule, 2x4.5 inches. That should work out alright from all I've read, they list those at 8000 grit, but in practice I understand they produce a much finer feeling edge. Perfectly suited to go right to the strop afterwards. Again, it will just be for in-a-pinch touch-ups. I have a pasted paddle, but it's not something I want to lug around. That, and the fact that it's pasted with .25 on one side and .5 on the other, haven't figured a clever way to keep them separated and clean, other than keeping it hanging under my sink. Now for that stone, I need to find someone who can make a small leather slipcase for it. Any recommendations?
threeputt,
Would an eyeglass case work for that hone? Just a thought.
Randy
I can attest to the goodness of the Premier as well. I got one off Tilly (who is a pleasure to business with). It really refreshes an edge quickly.Quote:
Originally Posted by halwilson
Best,
Mark
Hi Threeputt,Quote:
Originally Posted by threeputt
A small Belgian coticule should do very nicely! A good choice. Did you get that from Howard? I suppose you could get your local shoe repairman to make a leather slipcase for ya. Should be easy enough to do.
Hal
Jeff, nice stone:), is that blue/yellow or just the yellow (8000)? I like the sunglasses cover idea too...
Nenad
Yes from Howard, and it is indeed a blue/yellow. "Cut from the vein where the two meet" or something to that effect, says Howard. It's a beautiful piece of nature's work. I'll keep an eye out for an eyeglasses case that might handle it. It's too thick for any of the cases I have, but maybe I can come up with something. HEY I have zip knife cases, padded and everything. I can steal one of those from one of my knives tucked away in the closet and put it to some good use :-)
I keep my Swaty in a wide, hard eyeglass case, where it fits perfectly.Quote:
Originally Posted by rtaylor61
Where do you gents think the Lithide fits in with the Swatys and the Premier?
What finally seems to be working for me is to get the bevel on the razor formed well and on its way to sharp with the 4k/8k, then move on to the Lithide dry, Lithide with lather, then strop with 5, 1 .5 (paddle) and finally plain leather.
I had to touch up one of my shave ready razors the other day, and I tried the pasted strop, but it didn't seem to get it quite back, but 5 laps on the lathered Lithide followed by the pastes and then plain leather had it back in great form.
I think I could get the lathered Lithide to refresh a pulling razor by itself, but I think that the pasted strop gives me an advantage.
So am I nuts, lucky, or just have I just figured out something that works for me (at least for the 3 razors I have tried it on)?
Hi Darkwolf,Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkwolf
I have both the Premier (which is reputed to be swaty-like) and the Lithide. I'm not sure, but it seems to me like the lithide is very slightly coarser than the premier, so I use it first for about 5-10 passes and then 5-10 on the premier (then regular leather side of a strop). It refreshes wonderfully. Just my opinion though
Mark
The 5 micron strop is like 4K, so it seems like a step backwards. The 1 and .5 are moving in the right direction.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkwolf
Thanks Joe, I will try skipping the 5 micron and going straight to the 1 and .5 and see how it goes. It could be that the barber hone is irrelevent, and it is the 5 micron strop is doing the heavy work with the 1 and .5 finishing.
I should find out soon!
You could also try going from the Lithide dry directly to 1 micron (about 14K) which gives you a nice transition. I would check how much the wet and lathered Lithide are really doing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkwolf
If you have a way of checking improvement while you work, a good approach is to stay on a grit until improvement levels off, then move to the next one.
Pasted strops are very effective. A razor that is honed properly, however, will not be improved by a pasted strop. A well honed razor and stropped razor is as fine an edge as one can have, in my opinion and is almost certain to have a better, more consistent edge, give a cleaner, more comfortable shave and stay sharp longer.
There's a logical reason behind this. I wouldn't just say that based on an arbitrary judgement call.
What I've concluded is that strops will make it possible to put a shavable edge on a razor that hasn't been properly honed. If the edge isn't "just right", the pasted strop will put some whiteout on the mistake by keeping the flaws from being particularly noticable while shaving. Examples would be sharpening areas of the edge that have micro-pits or never got the full "v" edge beveled and sharpened, leaving areas flat. These will be "rounded" and then re-beveled at a more obtuse angle by the stropping with the paste. Obtuse angles don't cut as well and, although many people think that more obtuse bevels stay sharper longer, actually the opposite has proven to be true (within reason).
I think this has been disproven in practice and you can even do it yourself. I have been able to improve razors finished by honemeisters with a .25 paste.Quote:
Originally Posted by PapaBull
As an example, Classic Shaving points out that with a .25 paste a razor can be made too sharp. Each finer grit you use makes the microserrations (fin) finer. There has to be a limit, however, resulting from the crystalline structure of the steel. But it would appear to be past 100K.
You can't argue that finer hones like a 12K don't improve an edge. Why would you think that it stops abruptly. It's surely continuous. The finest stone you can get is 30K. A .5 paste is 50K and .25 is 100K. It's documented that edge sharpness can be improved with both after typical correct honing. The one reservation I would have is that there's such a big jump from 12K or 15K to a .5 paste, so you need to do a lot of work to see the effect of even .5 paste.
Before we can reach these kinds of conclusions a lot of work has to be done studying the effect of finer pastes on a well-honed edge. Even at 200x you can see that fine pastes smooth out the edge left by proper honing. It needs to be determined whether an edge that's that much sharper makes a difference. Commentary about the finer pastes seems to indicate it does.
Hello Robert,
I hope you don't mind but I do have to diagree with you based upon my own limited personal experience. The 0.5 and 0.25 abrasive pastes have both made a tangible difference in my razores edges.
I do agree with you that the pasted paddle strops can "mask" a poorly developed edge or one with some flaws as you mentioned. The basic step of analyzing the edge before you begin honing is probably overlooked by a lot of people and that includes me every once in a while.
Is it possible to obtain a really good edge without the abrasive pastes?
Yes! But the abrasive pastes do make it sharper.
Are we using the abrasive pastes as a crutch? Probably.
Each of us will develop our own method and tools to achieve our desired goal. Thats part of the fun of this. There is more than one way to skin this face, er... cat.:)
( now I have to try that balsa wood abrasive pasted strop.... maybe with some graphite this time:))
Quote:
Originally Posted by PapaBull