12K Advice Please

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10-18-2009, 10:22 PM
Scipio

12K Advice Please

Im looking to buy a 12k as a new finishing stone.

Currently I use a BBW and Crom oxide, but reading on this forum suggests to me that I could be getting better results. Define better, I know, however Id like to try a 12K and before I buy one Id like to consult the wisdom of the hone meisters and HAD men on this forum to determine:

a) To what extent is it superior / will provide me better results than a BBW (8k)

b) Which 12K. Im looking at 2 - the Nainwa 12k, and the Chinese 12k.

I understand that a natural stone is preferred by many to finish on while simultaneously I accept that a cheaper Chinese 12k will require many more laps than a faster cutting Naniwa.

Im tempted to go 4 the Chinese 12K. It sounds like I wouldnt risk any over honing, is natural, and a third the price of a Naniwa.

Can anyone confirm if its results are any different or worse to another 12k?

Many thanks, I appreciate being able to consult experts in the field
10-18-2009, 10:50 PM
holli4pirating

I've not used the Naniwa, but the C12k has provided me with great edges, and I think it's amazing value for money. It is pretty slow, and some members have posted that they've got "bad" ones.
10-18-2009, 10:52 PM
Joed

I don't have any synthetic homes over 8k so I can speak on them. For finishers I use the Chinese Natural or Escher. For the price the Chinese is a good home but you will need to be patient with it when honing and especially lapping it. The Chinese was my first hone over 8k and my results were very pleasing and obviously am improvement over the 8k. Everyone says that the Chinese takes ~ 100 strokes. I don't know if that is true but I do 100 strokes in 1.5 minutes so it is not an issue for me. Your preferences may allow you to get buy with less strokes. If money is of no concern there are better hones available. If you are homing 5 or less razors a week the Chinese will work fine. If you are homing for others or buying lots of razors you may want to consider a different hone up front or down the road a bit.

Good luck.
10-18-2009, 11:07 PM
Scipio

I wouldnt say I was honing 5 razors or more a week; or for that matter any razors on a weekly basis although I own over 20 now. I touch up as and when needed.

From what you say, the Chinese performs perfectly as well as any other 12K or it certainly does its job; its only disadvantage being slow at it?

This is not a problem then, as I only hone my own razors. I can therefore see why a professional would not choose such a hone if there were faster ones available.
10-19-2009, 10:19 AM
2Sharp

Buck up and get the Naniwa because you will eventually get it anyway after you use the Chinese 12K a little while.

bj
10-19-2009, 02:29 PM
rayman

I haven't used, or even seen, one of the chinese stones from Woodcrafters so this is a question for the others rather than an answer.

Since this is going to be primarily for his own use, why wouldn't a barbers hone be a good choice here?

Ray
10-19-2009, 02:31 PM
Slartibartfast

Yah.. CH12k is definitely a cheap option($20 at woodcraft). It just takes quite a bit of lapping and a lot of strokes. 100+
10-19-2009, 05:13 PM
holli4pirating

Quote:

Originally Posted by rayman

I haven't used, or even seen, one of the chinese stones from Woodcrafters so this is a question for the others rather than an answer.

Since this is going to be primarily for his own use, why wouldn't a barbers hone be a good choice here?

Ray

A barber hone would probably work just fine, depending on which barber hone. Of the "fine/finishers," some are finer than others. The well known ones, like Swaty's, are more expensive than the C12k. The question of how readily available a hone is could also come into play; the C12k is in stock at Woodcraft, so if there is a store nearby you can just walk in and get one. A barber hone would most likely from ebay or the forum (if one goes up), so that may take more time + shipping. There is also the question of length. Personally, even though the C12k may be slower than a barber hone, I prefer to make long strokes to short ones, especially when I'm doing a rolling stroke for a smiling blade.
10-19-2009, 05:17 PM
mojka

I used 12k Naniwa for my 4 razors and results are very good.The truth is it is not very cheap stone:(
10-20-2009, 02:27 PM
SavantStrike

I've got both a C12k and a Naniwa 12k.

The edges from the C12k are smooth and buttery, but they take forever to get there (so what). The trouble is they don't cause quite as much zero-pressure-stubble-off-the-face carnage as I would like (I get fantastic shaves with them, and it's HARD to cut one's self with a C12k edge but)...

The Naniwa will get me there in a hurry AND the edges are a little bit more aggressive- to the point where I need to use a few (and only a few) passes on CrOx to make them super cozy. Cuts are a lot more frequent with the Naniwa edges, too, but I blame the perceived sharpness. It feels pretty much as smooth as the C12k, but "sharper." I would rate the Naniwa as a marked improvement over my C12k personally.

That said, you can't really go wrong with either of them.
10-20-2009, 06:55 PM
cannonfodder

I am in Woodcraft all the time and have never seen a 12k stone. The finest thing they have is a Japanese 8K which is a micron or more finer than an 8K Norton (grit vs mesh sizing).

I have problems with a wire edge which does not happen often but I have had issues with it lately on some new custom razors. I have been getting perfictly good edges off the 8K norton and 0.5 chrom Ox with old sheffield and german blades. The harder steel in the Chandlers and Harners like to wire edge so I go to the japaniese 8K with a light slurry then with no slurry, then CrOx to finish but the edge is stll a bit rough. Edgy or scrapy on the shave.

Anyone know what the micron rateing for the WoodCraft 12K is? My King polish stone is around 1.8-.9 micron. How about a link to it on WC, cant find it on a search.
10-20-2009, 06:58 PM
Slartibartfast

The 12K rating is up for debate....

Here is the stone:

Natural Polishing Water Stone - Woodcraft.com

Quote:

Originally Posted by cannonfodder

I am in Woodcraft all the time and have never seen a 12k stone. The finest thing they have is a Japanese 8K which is a micron or more finer than an 8K Norton (grit vs mesh sizing).

I have problems with a wire edge which does not happen often but I have had issues with it lately on some new custom razors. I have been getting perfictly good edges off the 8K norton and 0.5 chrom Ox with old sheffield and german blades. The harder steel in the Chandlers and Harners like to wire edge so I go to the japaniese 8K with a light slurry then with no slurry, then CrOx to finish but the edge is stll a bit rough. Edgy or scrapy on the shave.

Anyone know what the micron rateing for the WoodCraft 12K is? My King polish stone is around 1.8-.9 micron. How about a link to it on WC, cant find it on a search.
10-20-2009, 07:01 PM
cannonfodder

Thanks for the link. I may pick one up just to see how it works. For that price it is a good bet.
10-20-2009, 07:02 PM
Sailor

Can't say anything about Naniwa, but as a finishing stones i have Chinese 12K and an old Shumate dry barber hone. Both work ok, Shumate is much more faster. It takes much more laps with the Chinese, but it can be used both wet and dry, with slurry or not.

I wouldn't much care about the fastness if it costs about 3x as much as the cheaper Chinese. You don't need to hone so often, and once you do it's all the same if you have to take 30 or 100 laps. Just my opinion.
10-20-2009, 07:04 PM
Slartibartfast

They actually work pretty well, especially for the price. Just takes a lot of strokes(think 100+)

When i had one, i played around with doing 50 w/ slurry(i cut off part of it with hacksaw to use as slurry stone) and then another 50 or so water only.

Holli and JoeD use them a lot i believe.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cannonfodder

Thanks for the link. I may pick one up just to see how it works. For that price it is a good bet.
10-20-2009, 07:21 PM
Seraphim

I had a Chinese 12k a long time back. I found it frustratingly slow, and probably never gave it the chance it deserved.

As posted in another thread, I just honed up my first Naniwa 12k, and had a great shave off of it.
10-20-2009, 07:32 PM
Chaaaz

Woodworkers Warehouse sells a 13K Chinese Waterstone

[QUOTE=Scipio;472825]Im looking to buy a 12k as a new finishing stone.

Currently I use a BBW and Crom oxide, but reading on this forum suggests to me that I could be getting better results. Define better, I know, however Id like to try a 12K and before I buy one Id like to consult the wisdom of the hone meisters and HAD men on this forum to determine:

a) To what extent is it superior / will provide me better results than a BBW (8k)

b) Which 12K. Im looking at 2 - the Nainwa 12k, and the Chinese 12k.

*******>>> I use a 13K Chinese Waterstone I obtained from Woodworkers Warehouse here in Mass. It was pretty flat to start, and does a nice job finishing and polishing an edge. I use it after a Norton 4k/8k pyramid, and it seems to finish nicely. I sometimes use Barber stones to finish the edge - I like my "Velvet" stone the best for that!

Good luckl! Experiment and collect a whole arsenal of sharpening paraphernalia - it only enhances the experience, and the art! :)
10-21-2009, 03:47 AM
cannonfodder

Well, I took some vacation time this week so I spent part of the day at the cigar shop. On the way home I stopped by WoodCraft to look for the stone again. He did have 2, one of each size. I dont think he even knew he had them.

When I got home I lapped it with a 320 diamond plate and plopped it in some water. I got out 3 razors. A Harner, Williams and Chandler. I back tracked a little on the hones to start from a fresh edge. I gave them 50 passes on the Japanese 8K with a light slurry. Then another 50 with no slurry. A close look at the bevel and you can still see the frosted edge from the stone.

I got out the 12K and started with 50 passes on my favorite Chandler. Not much of a change. Another 50 and and I could see a difference but not as much as I wanted so it got another 50. So i had 150 passes on the polish stone. It had a noticeably more polished bevel. I gave the Williams and Harner the same treatment.

After that they got 20 passes on a 0.5 micron chrome ox strop and another 80 on leather. Now they wont get a shave test till tomorrow but a cursory pass on the arm reviled two things. The Chandler realized a big improvement. The blade glided with no harsh edge feel. The Williams and Harner did not change as much.

So as with most things, you mileage may vary. The Harner and Williams had no issue to begin with, the Chandler was a little scratchy. The Chandler has a noticeable improvement, the others not so much but they did not have a problem to begin with. So if you have a problematic blade, going to the 12k could fix it. I will probably stick with the Japanese 8K and chrome ox but if it is still a little rough then it will get the 12k Chinese. Worth the $35. I used it with no slurry other than what comes up during the passes.
10-21-2009, 04:07 AM
avatar1999

The C12k is worth it. Nice polisher. May take a little longer, but that's ok with me...the whole process is kinda my "relaxation time" anyway :)

I can't speak for the Naniwa, never used it. Heard it works a little faster, but to me, it's not worth the extra cost. Just my $.02.
10-21-2009, 04:14 AM
mainaman

Have you tried felt pad for removing the wire edge? Is it too risky to use with a razor?

Quote:

Originally Posted by cannonfodder

I am in Woodcraft all the time and have never seen a 12k stone. The finest thing they have is a Japanese 8K which is a micron or more finer than an 8K Norton (grit vs mesh sizing).

I have problems with a wire edge which does not happen often but I have had issues with it lately on some new custom razors. I have been getting perfictly good edges off the 8K norton and 0.5 chrom Ox with old sheffield and german blades. The harder steel in the Chandlers and Harners like to wire edge so I go to the japaniese 8K with a light slurry then with no slurry, then CrOx to finish but the edge is stll a bit rough. Edgy or scrapy on the shave.

Anyone know what the micron rateing for the WoodCraft 12K is? My King polish stone is around 1.8-.9 micron. How about a link to it on WC, cant find it on a search.
10-21-2009, 06:53 AM
Sailor

Quote:

Originally Posted by mainaman

Have you tried felt pad for removing the wire edge? Is it too risky to use with a razor?

A friend of mine sharpens razors and removes wire edges with felt pads, but he's a goldsmith as a profession and worked with such tools over 20 years.
I wouldn't try it unless with some crap razor to practice only.
10-21-2009, 09:39 AM
ronnie brown

if you want to speed the c12k up ues it with a slury then just water it will cut the time in half it works for me.
10-21-2009, 02:04 PM
cannonfodder

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sailor

A friend of mine sharpens razors and removes wire edges with felt pads, but he's a goldsmith as a profession and worked with such tools over 20 years.
I wouldn't try it unless with some crap razor to practice only.

The trick is not to get the wire edge. Working it off on felt, or a pasted strop will still dull the blade. You have a rounded/jaged edge where the wire edge was IMHO. So I go with fewer passes on the higher grits to avoid the edge. If a wire does form, then I want it honed off a couple stones prior to finish. That gives the stone time to polish off any jaged edge that was left by the wire edge. For the price, I think you would be hard pressed to beat that 12K stone. Follow that up with a few passes on chrome ox to final polish and you end up with an edge that is mirror polished.