+1
You are soooo right. I'd love to sit and drink a cold one with one of the "honemeisters" after looking over their shoulder & pick their brain...
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I think the point of a "crap razor" is to learn how to hone , not to make it shave ready .. focusing on the basics like keeping the blade flat, the right pressure , X pattern, rolling on the spine and so and so forth ..
A noob can easily ruin a shave ready razor , so I say start off with a "crap razor " .. build confidence then move on
My point excatly...
How do you know???
If you have no discernible objective, You have no goal, nor any way of reaching it... Basically you are just wearing out your stones here....In fact a worse case scenario leaves you with bad habits that now need to be broken....
Glen and Wayne are right.
I don't think you get useful feedback on the hones with a junk blade. In fact if it's a paki blade, the feedback you get could actually hinder your progress as you pick up bad habits for trying to adjust to unsolvable issues due to poor quality steel
+1 on the quality steel. When learning to hone seeing some positive results is very encouraging while poor results bring frustration. At least if you're honing a decent Solingen , Sheffield or vintage USA you'll know that if you do your part you'll end up with a shaving sharp razor.
How can a newb ruin a quality razor if he is following instructions to the best of his understanding?
Pretty easily based on allot of the post I've seen... such as this one example from Lynn.
http://straightrazorpalace.com/honin...tml#post299684
Now granted, the razors may not be "ruined" as they will be able to shave again, but it probably falls out of the "quality razor" category when it no longer has the desirable traits one looks for such as even spine wear and a nice even and crisp bevel line.
GeauxLSU said it very well... "I found that one can read and watch all of the videos you want, but until you hone a razor it's all academic."
And if your "understanding" is wrong... the outcome will follow suit. This is not to say you won't learn something from the experience, but the point is there is a cost. And the cost has, on more than one occasion, been a "quality razor" turned into a spine flattened shaver.
Regarding "understanding", or more appropriately misunderstanding, this link provides some keen insight into how easily something that seems so simple to understand can be to execute without one on one instruction. http://straightrazorpalace.com/newbi...important.html
My recommendation would be this:
(1) Ebay Solingen razor (or if you have more time, straight razor, and look at all the names off the "good razors" list + razors with Solingen on the tang)
(2) Find one with LOTS of clear pics
(3) Find one of those with no significant scale damage, no chips, little or no pitting/rust and plenty of life left (no massive hone-wear) for under $30 with solingen on the tang(surprisingly easy)
(4) Learn to hone.
Thanks for your reply Steve. I wanted to say say "best of one's ability. I went with "understanding" Something that may never be fully realized: complete understanding; but we get the hang of it.
Ruined; I have read that many times. I think it is a word that could cause excessive worry and pensiveness. With mindless and massive abrasion it may actually be possible to ruin a razor, but I think it would be highly unlikely with someone trying to do a good job. There are simply too many resources on board to see that happen regularly.
First timers should use tape I think and that should solve any concerns.
After reading on the 'stropping is king' thread', it all finally fell into place.
Set the bevel - hone lightly on 1k until it passes Thumbnail test (TNT)
(TNT - where blade starts to dig into nail when dragged over it)
Don't do anything else until you've set the bevel!!
Don't do anything else until you've set the bevel!!
Don't do anything else until you've set the bevel!!
Pyramid (or whatever you use) - did mine on Naniwa 3k / 5k until passing thumbpad test.
(I then used barber hone for around 10 strokes)
Strop, Strop, Strop, Strop, Strop, Strop - this really got me there.
At all stages I kept the strokes as light as possible.
Someone posted somewhere about the first 5% (set the bevel) and last 5% (stropping) - this is so true.
Anyway - I'm a bit excited because I've finally got it!:)
All the best,
Michael (who has finally made his razor shave ready).
FTG - Glad to hear you've got it working!:tu
I really like the bold emphasis in your post. I'm thinking of printing it and hanging it over the workbench. It may be the best set of honing instructions I've read. Concise and to the point... just my style. :)
Disclaimer to my post above! I'm a honing newbie! Sharing my experience on this blade.
Experienced honesters may overide my directions if needed - but something I did worked for me :)
Of course this was only my first honing success on first blade
- next blade may be far more challenging (depending on condition of blade when I start).
Also helpful to have another properly shave ready razor to compare to.
All the best,
Michael.
Michael, congrats on getting it to pass the HHT. Now please update and let us know how it shaves.
I dislike the thumbnail test. It has the same effect on me as someone putting their nails on a chalkboard (but not dragging them down). I just sweep it about a mm above my arm. If it snags some hairs and cuts them off, it's got a workable bevel.
HHT is funny when it works. It's all about angle. When I pass it, I can cut a 3" hair to nothing in twenty swipes without hesitation. Put that same razor down, pick it up again and It will just push the hair out of the way, as if it's mocking me. I just can not reliably get the angle right.
Thanks Jimmy,
The shave!
Before I did the final stropping, stropping, stropping, stropping...
the blade would pull on the chin hairs.
After I got it to HHT sharp, the blade would cut through the hairs like it was softly brushing hair.... if that makes sense!!
It feels nice - but I'm going to see if more light stropping will improve it more. I'm aiming for hot knife through butter smooth - don't know if stroppng will get me there, but I don't mind - it's miles ahead of what I used to be happy with!
Life before the straight razor
- before getting into straights I'd happily shave with a cheap disposable long after it had got dull. But shaving with a really sharp straight - well, it's miles ahead!!!
Thanks again for the feedback - after reading all the advice and the how-tos, it's nice that honing a blade to shave ready really can come true!!!
All the best,
Michael.
I felt simlarly to TNT and TPT - didn't really like it and wasn't sure I was doing it right. But then again, felt the same way putting a blade against my face when I started shaving.
(These days I think I'd feel more uneasy putting a disposable near my face than I would a straight!:))
All the best,
Michael.
i found that i couldnt learn much from good ebay razors as they instantly became vintage qualety to me
so i just got 2 gd models 2 each
the best about that is its never gonna be an old jevel i ruin and if i really mess up i already got the same razor lying ready for abuse
the high heel didnt bother me wery much as i used a fairly coarse dmt for preliminary work
actually the smile was more of a challenge then the heel work
hmm anyone got a tip for dealing with the wide shoulders on the 66?
oh i have a couple of shave ready razors to set the standard and im not there yet but getting pretty close
A reply to my reply, lol by "crap razor" I don't mean an E bay special like a pakastani or sweeny todd you know what i talking about , what I mean by crap razor is this... a razor that doesn't cost much , a razor that may have some rust or busted scales or its been modified , like an antique store find , still a good quality razor and will take an edge , This my friends is the very best way hands down , I don't think anyone out there wants to ruin a new blade because they didn't know how to hone ...
I just read this entire thread and found it so helpful, I decided to give it a "bump" so that newcomers can sample the splendid advice here. I've developed a little collection of razors to use for learning to hone, some for learning to do more involved restoration. I would not call them "crap" razors, but the folks who sold them apparently thought they were. The all cost less than $20. These include brands like Solingen, Wostenholm, Boker, Dubl Duck, and Geneva Cutlery. They all have varying degrees of need for loving care ranging from a good cleaning and honing to new scales to a complete disassembly, blade clean and polish, re-scale, etc.
I just keep these now in a box in my shop and as my skills increase, I have a set of razors that I know will likely fix up just fine when my skills are ready.
How timely that this thread got bumped now. I've been working on my own little FAQ, and one I took a stab at was "What's the best way to learn to hone?" Here's what I've written so far:
In my opinion, it is best to learn how to hone from the end to the beginning. The finishing/touchup stage is the easiest to learn, and bevel setting is the most difficult.
-Touchups and finishing: Touching up a razor is something that every straight shaver should learn how to do, because, sooner or later, all razors will dull as a result of normal use. When a razor begins to pull, choose your finishing/touchup hone, and do 10 to 15 passes, then strop and shave. If you are happy with how the razor shaves, you were successful and you are finished. If you are not happy with how the razor shaves, try 10 to 15 more passes, then strop and shave. Repeat as necessary.
If you cannot get your razor to shave as you would like using the above method, it may be time to drop down one hone in the progression of stones. The next step would be to try a hone in the 8k range. On the 8k hone, do 10 to 15 passes. Then do 10 to 15 passes on your finisher. Then strop and shave. Again, repeat as necessary. Unless you have damaged your razor in some way, coarser hones should not be necessary.
Alternately, you can learn to finish a razor with the help of an experienced honer. If you send your razors out to be honed or buy shave ready razors, try asking for a razor that has only been brought up to the 8k level. When the razor arrives, strop and shave. Note how the razor feels when you shave. Before your next shave, try 10 to 15 passes on your finishing hone, then strop and shave. Note the differences in how the razor shaves. If you are satisfied, you are done. If not, try 10 to 15 passes on your finisher, strop and shave. Repeat as necessary.
-Sharpening and polishing: Once you are satisfied that you can touchup and finish a razor, the next easiest step is to learn to do the mid range sharpening and polishing. Here, it is easiest to have the help of an experienced honer, because you will want to have razors available which have their bevel set but have not been honed beyond that point. Most people do not sell razors that only have their bevels set, and most people do not offer just bevel setting services; but don’t be afraid to ask. Personally, I think it is important to learn on razors that already have their bevels set.
After a bevel is set, the first stage is to use a hone in the 3k to 5k range, and here again, the process will involve a bit of trial and error BEFORE you do anything else, try shaving some arm hairs and try a thumbpad test on the razor. These tests will give you a baseline so you’ll know where you are starting. These tests will also give you a frame of reference when you are ready to learn to set bevels on your own.
Once you have done an armhair test and a thumbpad test, it’s time to start honing. Do 15 to 20 passes on your 3-5k hone, then repeat the armhair test. You should notice an improvement in how easily the hair is cut – it should require less pressure against your skin and there should be less resistance when you cut. Do 15 to 20 passes on your hone again, and repeat the arm hair test. If there is improvement again, repeat the 15 to 20 passes and test. Once you no longer have any improvement, stop. At this point, you will have gotten the most you can out of your hone. Do the armhair test again, and try to remember what it looks, feels, and sounds like; do the thumbpad test, and try to remember what it feels like. The results from these tests will serve as benchmarks for the future, and will reduce the amount of trial and error you need to do next time.
Now, it is time to move up to the next hone, which would be in the 8k range. On your 8k hone, do 10 to 15 strokes, and then try an arm hair test. Do 10 to 15 strokes again, and try the armhair test again. As on the 3-5k hone, keep repeating this process until you are not getting any further improvements. You should be looking for the razor to cut with minimal pressure against your skin and minimal resistance. The razor should make minimal noise when cutting, and the hairs should be cut as soon as you touch them with the razor. When you reach this point, remember what the results of your armhair test are; do a thumbpad test and remember what the edge feels like. These will be your benchmarks for the future.
BEFORE you go to your finishing hone, strop your razor and have a test shave. You should get a very smooth, very nice shave with no pulling at all. This is the ultimate test of the 8k hone. If you cannot get a smooth, comfortable shave, you have not gotten all you can out of your 8k hone, and going to a finishing hone will not help you. You should not move up to your finishing hone if you cannot get a great shave off your 8k hone. If the shave is not great, go back to repeat the 10-15 stroke/armhair test process on the 8k. When there is no further improvement, strop and shave again. Keep at it until you get a great shave.
-Bevel setting: Learning to set bevels is the most difficult part of honing. This is not because the process is inherently difficult; it is because every ebay/antique store/estate sale razor will be in a different state of “dullness,” and that is a significant variable. By comparison, all razors that have just had their bevels set are in a rather narrow range; all razors that just need a touchup are in a rather narrow range.
Setting bevels requires you to figure out how dull the razor is, determine if the razor has any “quirks” you’ll have to address, have the confidence to keep removing steel until you get the bevel set, recognize when the bevel is set and stop, and maintain even strokes to avoid putting uneven wear on the razor. That is a lot to think about! Fortunately, if you have already learned the sharpening/polishing and finishing/touchup stages above, you’ll be at an advantage. Those stages will have already taught you to maintain an even stroke and to recognize when a bevel is set; they will also help you build confidence in your honing abilities. All that will be left is to figure out how dull the razor is and what “quirks” you may have to address.
There are a few things you can do to make these last two areas easier. Try to learn on razors that don’t have any chips, razors that sit flat on hones, razors with minimal and even wear, razors with half to full hollow grinds, and, most importantly, inexpensive razors that you wouldn’t really mind ruining – just in case. But whatever you do, make sure you are using a quality razor – razors on the do not buy list may never actually take a bevel, so you’ll never know if you are doing the right thing or not.
Excellent write up Dylan. Makes me wish I had learned it that way. HAH!
I wish I'd learned that way too.... I did learn a honing stroke doing touchups on a Swaty. I can remember practicing on the edge of the Swaty, which is maybe 1 cm "wide" to work on keeping the razor flat. But after that, I fell into the trap of getting a BBW/Coti and messing with slurry.
If I could go back in time and be patient enough, I would learn how I wrote about it.
For the most part, I can generally get a good shaving edge on a razor. This isn't because I have some natural talent, or stones quarried on Mars, or razors that leap to the stones and beg to be honed. I've been taught to hone by other members who gave of their time and their stone resources to help someone else down the sometimes frustrating trail. Special thanks to Holli4, JoeD, Carrie, not to mention Lynn and Don at last year's WNY meet. I hope to pass the favor on when I can, and I hope to keep learning, and I hope I don't get a case of fathead and get ahead of myself.
New members -- post where you live! Besides being interesting in itself, knowing your location might just be a ticket to meeting someone with like interests, and just maybe an assist into the world of honing.
Or maybe it will just become another addiction to feed; can't help you there.
If I could make a suggestion regarding the section quoted above. After reading it I had a feeling something was missing- and that is that you don't really describe to someone who wouldn't know better WHAT actually does 'setting a bevel' mean, and HOW do you go about doing it. I'd suggest either leaving this section out, or somehow linking it to a separate article maybe. You could keep the section in, but if I were new to honing, I think I would still be left clueless as to this stage after reading the above. Perhaps a diagram would help, showing what a bevel should theoretically look like and what a dulling edge would look like in comparison?
Thanks for the feedback, Alex. I knid of burnt myself out at the time, and I wasn't really sure how to address the setting the bevel process either. The more "basic" stuff appears, the harder it really is to explain (at least for me). Everything is always a work in progress with me, anyway.
The upshot, though, is if someone was to actually go through the other stages first, they should be pretty comfortable with honing, know a bit about razors' edges, and have seen set bevels already (assuming they get razors with the bevels set, test them out, and then do the mid-level stuff). So I don't think it's quite as incomplete as it appears, though I agree it is incomplete.
To the OP i can say that as someone who for surely lives even on a different time zone from the closest straight shaver i've had to find out the path all by myself from dull to sharp. Of course it helped a lot as i had sharpened other tools for many years but i did not really have the goal to go. It was more like try, test, try, test sort of thing. Once i learned that no matter how polished my edges are if the bevel isn't set i saw the light. Nowadays sharpening is not rocket science but easy as soon as i can make the bevel set. That is the key to success. Strangely humming around with straights has helped me to get somehow better edges to my kitchen knives as well.
thanks all for this awesome thread
I re-read this whole thread again today. Wow. If we had to pay something to read this thread, it would be worth it. A real seminar in honing.
I'm an academic, a research scholar, a professor, and also a clergyman. I prize the integration of abstract principles, factual information, values, tradition, and the wisdom of experience.
You guys have done this. Honestly, I wish students in my Bible classes in seminary could blend precept and practice, information and experience, in the realm of religion, the way you guys do.
Thanks to all who have added to our knowledge.