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After a couple months with a razor honed by Lynn, I seem to having the shaving thing down pretty well. So I figure it's time to move on to the next step -- learning to hone my own razors.
I figure I need:
1. A stone of some sort. Any recommendations? What's cheap and good for a beginner?
2. One or two eBay special razors to practice on.
Anything I'm missing? Is there a decent honing tutorial out there somewhere, that I can learn the basic technique from?
It's hard to find something both cheap and good. :D
I would recommend a Norton 4000/8000 3" water stone. You can get it at classicshaving.com for a good price. It works very well and the 3" width makes it easier for beginners (and not so beginners alike). It is also a stone you will have for a long time. Later on you might want to add a 12000 chinese waterstone but that is more personnal.
You are right on the ebays just make sure it's not a Paki razor that will just frustrate you. I found a Weston bros. razor for $9 when I started. It worked well.
Good luck.
The norton stone isn't cheap, but it's worth the $$.
Here's one video on sharpening made by member Brian D.
http://current.tv/studio/media/1036918
I don't have any extra razors myself, since I just started several months ago and my collection is still accumulating slowly. I'd search ebay for straight razor lots and maybe try to pick up a few razors in so-so condition for like 10-$20.
For the beginner who wants to maintain a professionally honed edge, the pastes are your best bet. For learning the art of honing (and it takes time and patience) the Norton combo has been great for me andf the 1200 grit is a very alluring temptation as well.
The video is great, but for some reason my old eyes seem to see Brian honing by lifting the blade and spinning it blade edge toward hone. I would recommend turning it on its spine. Both would work but honing is a practiced art and practicing correctly would be beneficial, again it may just be an optical illusion and he is doing it the standard way. I also just read the barbers manual in the files sections on honing and think that this is what I would focus on if I were starting over.
The key though is patience....you can do it correctly for days and not get any appreciable effect on an Ebay blade. That would throw off any unwary beginner. Do not succumb to temptation and begin to use severe pressure on the blade. Try and find the right amount of pressure (don't be swayed by all the "don't use any pressure" on the hone zealots either) you can imagine a butter knife would need a little pressure, and a near shaving razor hardly any. Its a sliding scale, error on the side of lower pressure, always. But don't be surprised in the end if you find that applying a little pressure was the key to honing success for some of the razors off Ebay.
As far as equipment goes the Norton is the best for all around work. A barbers hone is great, but I think you need more than one. For learning I would buy the Norton. A paddle strop with .5 diamond paste is a great idea in the beginning too if you really want to shave with the razor, since your honing may not be good enough to take the razor to its ultimate Norton hone shavability. Later it will be plenty all by itself.
Using a razor off Ebay may not be the best choice for learning, I might consider a new Dovo (one of those BEST models maybe). I have heard of people honing on an Ebay razor only to find after a few months that it can't be honed...period. A bad spine or bad steel or whatever and your not really learning squat, your just doing high reps to bulk up one arm on a hone (which doesn't produce a ripped arm anyway).
As an experienced Instructional Systems Designer (ISD) I can assure you that learning to hone via an internet forum is the sure path to frustration, again be patient, you'll get it. If you put 100 monkeys in a room with 100 Norton hones and 100 Ebay razors you wouldn't get a single shavable razor, ever! Even if they were all members of SRP. Appropriate knowledge first, good equipment, and then lots of the correct practice.
So from my ISD experience I'd say, get one razor thats easy to hone (not any Ebay junk razor, not stainless, not 1/2 hollow), and one hone thats easy to learn on (like a Norton) and learn how to hone by reading the barbers manual and do it just like that, and only like that; with only those two items and no other equipment until you get a razor that shaves ok. Then, and only then, if you get no results call someone or ask someone or post a question. And when you do always preface with "I am using this hone on this blade and ...."
You have received some good info here. Be sure and read all the help files on honing and view the gifs.
A very good suggestion was for you to obtain an abrasive pasted paddle strop to maintain your existing razor. The 0.5 micron paste should work just fine.
The second very good suggestion is to buy a new razor and get that sharp before you tackle the Ebay specials. Frankly, most of the Ebay specials need some work on a stone coarser that 4000. It is common for me to use the 1000 stone to remove nicks and the old edge before I move up to the 4000 grit Norton. Sometimes you will get lucky and purchase an Ebay Special that has a good edge, but not usually. If you already have the practice razors and these are the only ones you are going to ever be working on then you can use a piece of 1000 grit sandpaper, wet/dry/ laid on a flat surface, to repair the old edge.
If you want additional info on this then just ask.:)
Quote:
Originally Posted by randydance062449
Randy, I am about to use a 1000 for the first time. What changes should I be looking for that gives me the indication to move on to the 4K--thumbnail test, thumb test, hanging hair.....? jmsbcknr
I could be wrong, but when I used the 1000K stone, I looked for uniformity (i.e. straightness of the edge, nick free) under the little radio shack microscope. The edge itself was pretty dull, so the sharpness tests wouldn't apply
I am starting my journey on honing and have been in search of a video to watch before I made any attempts at honing a razor. I watched the video link in post #3 of this string a couple of times. Based on the subsequent posts, am I correct in assuming (I really don't like to assume) the way Brian is honing in the video is incorrect?
If there are other links to honing videos, please advise. Thanks,
Jeff
Quote:
Originally Posted by elbows
If you want to avoid frustration, one thing I would add immediately is a Swaty hone. The reason I say that is that it's cheap and will allow you to maintain the razor for a long time without actually honing. Unlike a 12K stone a Swaty is fast in addition to being fine. If you're in the middle of a shave and the razor feels like it's pulling a couple of swipes (3-5) on the Swaty and normal stropping will set it straight. If you do that every once in a while, you can avoid honing for a long time.
If you wanted to do that with a 12K stone, you would need to set up the stone and would need to do a lot of passes on it. I keep a Swaty at the sink and can use it instantly.
A paddle strop is a lot easier to use at the beginning, but I wouldn't substitute a .5 pasted strop for a touchup hone (Swaty). The hone is in the 10-12K range, while the paste is 50K. It will therefore require a lot more work to refresh an edge than even a 12K stone. The Swaty does exactly what you need to refresh the edge. You just have to remember to use it sparingly.Quote:
Originally Posted by AFDavis11
The 1K is just starting the edge. You just need to see visually that you have an even edge to move on to the 4K. You can use the thubnail test to come off the 4K. That tells you you have a sharp edge with no nicks and have not overhoned.Quote:
Originally Posted by jmsbcknr
It's not wrong. People were just suggesting that maybe he had gotten into some bad habits. Turnning over the razor while rolling on the spine avoids accidental contat between the edge and the stone.Quote:
Originally Posted by str8rzrshvr
On the actual stroke either the x-pattern or heel-leading straight across work the same way. The barber's textbook says that honing on an angle to the edge (instead of perpendicular to it) produces the sharpest edge.
As the other have mentioned look for a uniform bright edge. If you have a microscope that will tell you a lot. The thumbnail test will be the most useful if you do not have a scope. Use the thumbnail test before you begin and after every 25 laps on the 1000 grit. When it feels like its digging in a little and the feel is uniform and smooth for the entire length of the blade then you can move on to the 4000 stone, but not before.Quote:
Originally Posted by jmsbcknr
The purpose of the 1000 stone is to remove any nicks, rust, pitting or other minor oxidation that is on the bevel and to end up with a bevel composed of healthy steel as well as a well formed bevel.
Hope this helps,:)
If the 1000 grit is so aggressive, would it not be better to use a 1200 grit stone, like the Col. Conk hone?
http://www.premiumknives.com/knifefi..._110_small.jpg
http://tinyurl.com/7wggz
RT
A 1200 stone wouldn't make much difference I actually use A 1220 diamond hone for this. The Col. Conk hone is a razor hone, so it's probably a lot finer than 1200, probably about 6K.Quote:
Originally Posted by rtaylor61
The 1K is too coarse for a razor. It's jus used to pare it down to the point where you can hone normally.
So the consensus seems to be:
- Get a Norton 4k/8k hone
- Get a new razor to practice on
- Use either a pasted strop or a Swaty hone to maintain my current razor
I already have the DOVO paddle strop, with leather on one side and wood on the other, coated with red paste. Will this do for maintenance, or am I better off with a Swaty hone?
Both Norton hones and new razors are a bit pricey. I can probably fit one or the other into my budget, but not both. I'm inclined to go with the Norton hone and ebay razors.
However, there's a barber in my area who I believe has some razors he no longer uses. I talked to him a while ago in search of shaving advice, and while he wasn't very helpful (I believe his exact word were "Do you face a favor -- get a Gillette"), he made an off-hand comment about having a bunch of razors gathering dust somewhere. It seems like these are likely to be in better shape the average ebay razor, plus I can inspect them before I buy. I assume he has hones also -- are these likely to be suitable for a beginner to learn on?
The downside to this plan is I will probably have to endure another lecture on how straight razors are more trouble than they're worth ;-)
Sounds like your barber is cranky...Anyway, my advice, for what it's worth, is to get a razor from a honemeister here so that you have a goal to shoot for (i.e an example of how sharp a well honed razor can be!). That's the route I took.
Best,
Mark
I already have a razor sharpened by Lynn, though it's no longer as sharp as it was when he gave it to me.
Well if you send him a 20-spot, he'll get it wickedly sharp! :D
I'm not sure, but I think the red paste is the coarser one. So you'd still benefit from a Swaty. It gives you speed flexibility because you can use it dry, wet or with lather. Also, you can use it wet right at the sink. You wouldn't want to wet the strop.Quote:
Originally Posted by elbows
Here's what info is on classicshaving.comQuote:
Originally Posted by Joe Lerch
Green Sharpening Paste is the coarsest with a particle size averaging 6 microns and should be used on a very dull edge.
Red Sharpening Paste is less coarse with a particle size of 2-4 microns and will refresh a mildly dull edge.
Yellow Paste has no sharpening qualities and is used as a leather strop conditioner on your "everyday use" strop.
White Paste is used as an edge polish on the LINEN STROP ONLY!
Best,
Mark
My mistake. That makes the red equal to about an 8K. Not very helpful if you're going to have an 8K stone.Quote:
Originally Posted by marciaga
I would get a Swaty.
Hello Joe,
I think it was about one year ago over on the Yahoo SRP that the Col Conk hone question came up. It was determined, I forget how, that it was a 1200 grit hone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Lerch
How can they sell thar for razors? Did you see the rough edge the 1K gives you? That's what my ultrafine diamond (1200) gives me.Quote:
Originally Posted by randydance062449
randydance062449 said:
Quote:
I think it was about one year ago over on the Yahoo SRP that the Col Conk hone question came up. It was determined, I forget how, that it was a 1200 grit hone.
This is from the premiumknives.com website:
"The Colonel Conk Water Hone works wonders for sharpening straight razors and cutlery. Approximately 1200 Grit stone with instructions for use."
RT
I'll repeat my question in the hope that someone will have an answer. We know that a 1200 grit is only good for roughing in an edge. You need to go to the 4K just to finish making the edge, forget about polishing. How can a 1200 hone be used as a razor hone?Quote:
Originally Posted by rtaylor61
opinion only:
Although I can't provide any evidence of such I personally do not believe that hone is 1200 grit. If I were to make an uneducated guess I'd say its about 5,000-6,000 grit. I think it is a poor razor hone but works ok for setting an edge and I think it qualifies as a razor hone, but that it is not 1200 grit. I will hone a razor on it and check it under a microscope. But I would still just be guessing from my use of it. I would think a 1200 would feel rougher than a 4,000 and it is smoother than 4,000.
That's what I always thought, but the ad does say 1200, unless it's a mistake.Quote:
Originally Posted by AFDavis11
There's a similar inconsistency with hard Arkansas stones. They're nominally 1200 but feel much finer and do have a reputation for giving a fine finish. I read somewhee that the garnet particles are 3-5 micron, which is between 4K and 8K.
I'd love to be able to figure it out, but in the mean time I would feel comfortable at this point believing my own eyes and uneducated opinion over an advertisement...last time I brought it up on the old site I got shot down pretty quick...oddly by a lot of people who had never actually seen one...oh well, I'm still open to an interpretation. If I owned a 1200 grit hone I might feel more certain about it. Anyone who owns one have an opinion?
Let us know what you decide!:) Its good of you to try this and expand our knowledge base.
Waiting!:)
Quote:
Originally Posted by AFDavis11
Hello Joe,
I believe the garnets are in the Belgian stones, not the Arkaksas stones. And the garnets fracture into smaller sizes.
The Arkansas stones are another story. I believe they are measured and graded in terms of specific gravity, not particle size.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Lerch
That was my mistake. You're right, but the micron size was correct. The specific gravity tells you the density of the grains. The grain size determines the size of the scratch lines.Quote:
Originally Posted by randydance062449
I honed on the Col. Conk stone some today and reviewed the scratch patterns. I haven't come to any conclusions. I think, absent, a comparative 1200 grit stone that I can't really make a definitive conclusion. It did appear to have a pattern similar in separation to the 4,000 side of a Norton.
I've got a few questions about the video from way back at the beginning of this thread.
1. Is it really necessary to store Norton waterstones in water?
2. Should you really be flattening out both sides of the stone that frequently?
3. My razor is high carbon (not stainless) steel. In that video the guy is holding it with two hands the whole time. Is that ok? (it was always my understanding that getting fingerprints on the blade was bad)
1. No, the Norton should be stored in water only if you are using it couple times in a week. Otherwise it is fine to keep it dy, in it's box. Just remember to soak it in room temperature water for 10 minutes before using it.
2. One of the stupidest things to do is flattening your stone after couple of honing jobs. You loose it slowly that way. The stone needs to be flatened after very frequent use. Flatening the stones appeared as necesitty with soft natural stones and sharpening knifes usage, when greater pressure is used and the softer stone gives away faster. With your average 1 razor a month honing job, this can be avoid completely. Just wash the stone with regular bar soap. I use my boar bristle brush to "lather" the stone couple of times and wash it with water, and it is like new. If some metal residue still refuse to clean after this, you can use pumice stone, lightly rubbing the stone the whole surface. This will also keep straight surface on it.
3. Fingerprints on the razor have no meaning whatsoever, since you are handling the razor wet from the stone. after honing, clean the razor with whatever (soap and water, alcohol rub) dry it well and, if you are living in humid area, aply a drop or two of mineral oil, light sewing machine oil, or camelia oil, and whipe with paper towel. You can also consider the long therm protection solutions (DOVO's Sterol comes to mind) for more permanent protection.
have fun,
Nenad
I agree that over use of trying to flatten your stone will only wear it out quicker. I have not used a pumice stone on a hone but from it's use with strops I think it is likely sodter than any stone we would be using and is probably best for simply cleaning off metal residue and likely does not resurface (flatten) the stone.
There are cast steel plates made specifically for flattening stones and Woodcraft and othrs carry them. They would be my first choice for this task.
I like the Dovo Sterol for my daily protection of razors not just long term. It is clean (the Ster part of Sterol) and goes a long way. I still have half a bottle left that is over a year old. Pretty good value I think.
Machine oil, etc.... may doe the job but may also have things in them which could irritate the skin unlike the Sterol.
Tony
1. Has been answered
2. I flatten/clean my hone by rubbing two of them together or by placing some wet/dry sandpaper on a flat surface and lapping on that.
The frequency is about every three honings. But...thats because I am honing a razor from scratch. For your once every three month honing that would not be necessary. Just keep the metal filings off the hone by placing the hone under running water and rubbing it with your fingers or a nylon pad.
3. One hand or two. This has been discussed at length on the various forums. The goal is to have an even pressure on the blade all along its length while honing. Avoid excess peressure from the second hand. It will create an uneven amount of wear on the blade. Do what you feel most comfortable with. Concentrate on your technique. Either way will require practice.
Just my two cents,
Quote:
Originally Posted by 440stainless
For machine oil I am not sure, but 100% mineral oil should be fine, it is the same as baby's oil...Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Miller
Nenad