I want to order a norton. Do i really need the flattening stone? Do they need to be lapped when they arrive? Also do they need to be stored in water or just soaked before using?
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I want to order a norton. Do i really need the flattening stone? Do they need to be lapped when they arrive? Also do they need to be stored in water or just soaked before using?
if it is not flat yes.
you can check easily with a ruler for example.
Unless it was purchased lapped, which is unlikely, then yes it will.
I'll assume you are thinking about a Norton 4K/8K combo.Quote:
Originally Posted by nicknbleeding
You don't really need a flattening/lapping stone, although using one is way easier than the alternatives IMO. You can use wet/dry sandpaper on a flat surface like a stone tile or surface plate. I have a Norton lapping stone, a DMT 8c, a Shapton Glass diamond lapping plate (GDLP) and sandpaper. After using all four I think the sweet spot is probably the DMT. It's reasonably priced and can be used for other tasks in addition to lapping. The GDLP works better for lapping, but it is significantly more expensive than the other methods.
You definitely need to lap the Norton before using it. In addition to flatness you are going for smoothness on the 4K side. A lot of the Nortons come with a fairly porous, almost gritty, feeling surface. I had to lap about an 1/8th inch off of mine to get it smooth. You also want to relieve the long edges by rounding them off slightly.
The 4K (and maybe the grits lower than 4K?) need to be soaked in water for about 15 minutes before honing. If you hone a lot, like some honemeisters, you could store the stone in water to save time. Most guys just soak the stone before a honing session.
Not too long ago the Norton was the standard stone for experienced honers which meant that there was (and is) an abundance of information on the forums regarding it's use. That made it the logical starting point for someone getting started. In the last few years the Shapton and Naniwa hones have displaced the Norton and carry with them some other benefits so you might want to consider them as well.
I agree with Bill that the Naniwas or Shaptons have sort of shot the Nortons out of the saddle. At least the Naniwas have for me. Doesn't matter what stones you buy or if you buy them lapped. Eventually you will have to do it again so either a flattening stone or sandpaper on a flat surface. I personally like the DMTC 325 continuous plate since it will last a long time if used properly.
+1 on what they said. I have a DMT8c as well and felt it a worthy purchase. When I lapped the stones out of the box, I was amazed at how NOT true they were! Also, don't forget to round all the edges, all 8 of them per stone (didn't see the need to round out the 4 verticals).
I saw a Norton video(some place) and they said you don't have to store them in water, just soak for 15 minutes before using.
DMT Diamond Stone, 70 mm, Blue 325 Grit
Can i use this for lapping?
I guess this might be small for what i would need but is this type ok if it is bigger
I've read on the forum that type works. I have the continuous plate (without the holes) and that is good if used in the sink under running water.Quote:
Originally Posted by nicknbleeding
How hard is it to use just sand paper? Is there realy that big of a difference?
I've never done it. You might do a forum search for 'sandpaper'. Here is a tutorial by Josh Earl on the subject with photos.Quote:
Originally Posted by nicknbleeding
Well, it depends. For occasional re-dressing (that all hones need) the sandpaper works OK and isn't hard to use. On the other hand, if I had used sandpaper for the initial lapping of my Norton I would have used so many sheets of it that I probably would have been about half way to the cost of a DMT.:gaah:Quote:
Originally Posted by nicknbleeding
I usually use my lapping plate hand held under some running water which would not be possible with sandpaper (as far as I know). So for me, there is a difference. This is one of those YMMV things.
It's also worth mentioning that the flattening stone is far more convenient than a sandpaper/glass combo or similar. Bare in mind that norton stones are very soft and will need lapping maybe every other time you use them. Possibly more if you're a bit obsessive.
Lapping with sandpaper is easy, I have done it. When I learned this method, I was told to use wet sandpaper but dry would work as well. I put the wet sandpaper on a wet flat surface so that the water keeps the sandpaper attached to the surface. Then you make a grid with pencil on the stone you want to lap and sand away in circles with 100 or 120 grit until flat (when the grid you draw on the stone is gone). then to finish the stone, you go again in circles (about 40 to 50 times, depending on the grit until the scratch marks from the previous grit are gone). I normally follow this progression: 120|220|320|500|800|1000.
Al raz.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nicknbleeding
Wow Alraz, u progress thru to 1000-grit just for lapping? Impressive.
1) for sure it will need lapping sooner rather than later
2) the norton stone's the easiest to use for the norton (to me)
3) dmt coarse works well too
4) if you want to exchange time for money, all you need's some sandpaper and a truly flat backing surface like a sheet of plate glass to lap them. But if you'd ever used the norton lapping stone or the dmt, you'd see it is a huge time saver.
I literally feel that a freshly-lapped 4/8k works notably better than one that is not, on each and every razor that I put upon it. So I just give it a brief lapping before putting a new razor through the progression. The Norton wears concave pretty quickly.
Should a brand new Norton lapping stone be lapped with sandpaper before its first use? Or even periodically?
Before you use a new Norton, mark it with a pencil grid and lap it, preferably under running water, and then again every few razors. I never lapped the lapping stone.
I tried using one of those (I have them in a set for knife sharpening) and I would NOT recommend it. The problem with lapping with something that small is you're not going to get the whole surface of the hone flat. Some areas will end up higher/lower than others. It's a PITA.Quote:
Originally Posted by nicknbleeding
Using sandpaper is easy. Go to home depot or lowes and buy a $2 square of marble and put the sandpaper on it for a level surface. The thing I don't like about using sandpaper is that you keep wearing out good wet/dry on hones. It will add up after a while. You're better off getting the DMT D8C. For ~$40 you can't beat it really. And no, if you use sandpaper, you don't have to go up to 1000. I never used anything more than 600, and even then, I think it was a bit of a waste (on Nortons that is.)Quote:
Originally Posted by nicknbleeding
Also with sandpaper, if you use cheap stuff or press too hard, you run the risk of getting sandpaper grin stuck in the hone. Not a good thing.
Don't buy the Norton lapping stone. IMO, it's a waste of money. It will need lapping, and is a royal pain to lap. Go with the DMT and you will never have to lap it. Just be sure to use it under running water, and don't let the slurry build up on it while lapping. That can cause the diamond abrasive to come loose.Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterLewisR
Well, I got my Norton starter set in the mail last night with the 220/1k combo, 4k/8k combo, and lapping stone. First, I took the lapping stone to 180 w/d on a granite tile. I couldn't tell if it did much, but it seemed pretty darn flat to begin with. After using the lapping stone on the Norton combos, I decided to try using the Norton lapping stone with my barber hones. It scratched the living daylights out of them, and now I have already spent nearly an hour with the 180 w/d trying to fix the damage to my Apart and Swaty hones with no discernible success. I was planning on touching up the barber hones on a finer grit after the lapping stone anyway, but it seems I have taken a huge step backward and will need to invest a few more hours to get rid of the scratches in the barber hones.
In conclusion, do not use the Norton lapping stone on your barber stones.
The DMT 8c was the best money I have spent on honing and I have spent a lot. Sandpaper works but after having a DMT you realize how much it sucks. Plus with the sandpaper I had some contamination issues.
Don
Sandpaper, or Wet Sandpaper has it's place, If you lapp a fine hone with a D8C or even a D8XX, it's nice to finish the job with, up to 1000g for a nice glass finish, especially on J nat's, Escher's and Barber Hones to name a few....Norton, ehhhh...The D8C is probably good enough....
I have used sandpaper and the norton lapping stone. With that said, my dmt was a very good investment.
You could probably get away with a dmt 600 and use it for double duty bevel setting/resto work.
A piece of wet-or-dry sandpaper stuck to a heavy piece of glass with water works great for flattening stones. I use a glass cutting board that I bought at WalMart for a few dollars (and you can get the sandpaper there too) -- it works perfectly.
Another vote for the DMT here, although I do like sandpaper for rounding edges following lapping. 600 wet/dry from 3M is plenty.