Logarithms for honing, or, How many passes?

I'm wondering, given the pyramid method et all, about the relational issue between honing passes and grit size. I was noting the other night that I wasn't sure how many passes to make on .5 pasted strop. I found that 30 was about right. This morning, rising out of bed, it occured to me that a stair step approach to honing should yield a sort of logarithmic scale of honing. I.E. if 1 pass on a 4,000, and 3 passes on an 8,000 are correct then a logarithmic formula might exist for estimated grits on barber hones. I.E. a 10,000 grit hone requires then 5 passes to accomplish its job (the removal of the 8,000 grit scratches), where as you could "theoretically" figure out:

1. The number of passes that should be used for .5 pasted strop and the number of passes for .25 pasted strop (maybe double). I wonder if you could then determine the number of .25 pasted passes to hone an Ebay razor?
OK so it would take a math genius to figure out that it takes 25,000 passes, but a more applicable understanding would be:

1. Given 1 on 4,000 and 3 on 8,000 it should on average take 5? on 10,000 and 25? on .5 pasted strop to hone a razor since each progressive hone is removing the grit lines from each successive hone. Whereas as long as the 4,000 does its initial job (pyriamiding if you fail) then from there it should be possible to develop a mathmatical scale for various grits, at least in estimated value of the number of passes.

What do you guys think? I would be interested in an applicative discussion instead of mathmatical one but. . . how many passes do you guys typically use to hone a razor for each grit? I typically do this:

1/4,000
4/8,000
6/10000
30/50000

I often pyramid back to 1/4000 more than once until I'm sure its right before climbing up grits.

I can imagine someone might only do 4 passes of every grit all the way up to shaving nirvana.

What kind of pattern do the rest of you typically use? I'm wondering if we all just naturally do the same thing or if we do a great variety.

220-221 Whatever it takes.........lol. Couldn't resist. Lynn

LOL. . . yea Lynn I know, but the razor doesn't talk to me like it does to you...lol. I find the razor digs into my nail at every step and slices my thumb on every hone too. Yous guys....

Hello str8 razor friends,

May I entertain doubts whether such mathermatical approaches lead to significantly better results?

My feeling is that becoming one with the materials during honing and stropping yield better shaves and much more pleasant experiences, provided one uses basically correct techniques.

Best regards,

lux

Quote:

---

220-221 Whatever it takes.........

---

Great movie! Just don't let Michael Keaton re-model YOUR home!

RT

I'm not going to get anywhere with this thread am I? LOL

If your trying to quantify the honing process, good luck. The pyramid scheme is really a struggling attempt to try and do just that and its a convenient starting point. In reality each razor is an individual and each one takes a different degree of honing to do the job. Even new out of the box razors all require different approaches. I had two sequentially numbered SRP TI razors and out of the box they each required radically different honing schemes to get shave ready.

Its all a matter of experience and feel.

Just thinking about it hurts my head.:thinking: I know what you mean, but there are too many factors. Any hone will remove more of a rough surface than that of a smooth, but all smoother hones remove less than rougher hones. Rough honers will remove more of any surface than others. The quality of each razor as mentioned.:shrug:

I think in order to answer those questions we need to ask first what makes the pyramid work. :hmmm:

X

From the "Straight Razor History & Details" PDF on this site, p 10.

2.02 About The Razor's Edge And The Art Of Honing

The most difficult edge to create is that of the lancet, but that of the razor is also not easy to care for.
For example, it suffices when a lancet is good and well sharpened to perform well at all type of
operations, but a razor that works well with a heavy beard may not be effective for a normal one vv.
Excellent razors exist that work well with both types, but this is not more than a compromise resulting
from keeping the middle between a strong and a fine edge. It is the honing technique that makes an
edge perfect for a specific type of beard. A relatively coarse and strong edge makes the hair fold instead
of being cut; a too fine edge 'brakes off' or bends at thick hairs. Inappropriate edges cause hairs to be
torn instead of being cut. So, one needs a fine edge for soft beards, and a coarser one for heavy beards.

This makes sense so shouldn't talk about honing technique mention the beard type for which it worked best?

Hi Vladimir,

interesting find - I've never looked at the sharpening stuff this way :)

This btw. also explains why some people are perfectly happy with a not-so-sharp razor while others only will accept the finest and sharpest edges as comfortable shavers.

As fate will have it, I am happy to get my razors sharp enough for comfortable shaving at all - so these niceties will be something I can try my hands on sometime in future :D

So in this regard I am most curious to see what our fellow old-timers and pro's here will get out of this ...

-Axel-

The pyramid method is indeed only a starting point. It is a structured approach that will help you get to where you want to be.
I have to agree with all of you. It takes what it takes and the variables are many but you can get that razor honed to you own standards. I wish there were a formula that would work. But there is none so we have to develop an actual skill.

OK, as an adition to this post, we have to establish the sharpness and edge holding. Everyone is talking number of weeks (months) their razors last between honings, forgeting to mention their shaving routine, rotation, beard type... So, the better benchmark is not the time razor keeps the edge, but the number of shaves. That way, regardless if the razor is in the rotation or no, we can determine the edge holding capability. So, the questions (actually 3 of them) are:

1. How many shaves you get from your razor between honings?
2. What stropping routine you use?
3. What is your beard type, color, growth (goatee, moustashe, clean shaven)?

And the aditional info is on how do you hone your dull (from shaving) razor?


hope this helps,
Nenad

vladish- Great post, I don't think I've ever read that. All have to start searching the files yet again for these little tidbits that are so fun to read.

I'm at the point now where I take all my razors to an overhoned edge and then backhone. This seems to put all the razors (with some minor variances in steel softness etc) to the same exact point. I sort of assumed every one else did the same. Then a few passes on the carborundum, a few on the Swaty, and then lots, like 40-60 on .5 pasted balsa strop. Then just .5 reps until shaving perfection. So thats the only process I know, which I think is attacking the problem a little backwards. But works really easy.

I'm still very unclear on how you guys use just hones to put it into an exact shaving edge without honing, shaving, honing, shaving, honing, shaving..etc. but I would like to learn.

The closest I've come is to run the razor over my arm hair, but the blades seem to mow down my arm air no matter what I do to them. I end up with a really wide variance by honing; really sharp razors that don't shave anywhere near as nice as a razor stropped on balsa wood with paste.

This, pseudo-epiphany may be my problem. I always assumed once the bevel was set there was a "general" understanding of what it would take from there and that you could test on a thumbnail and on the flesh itself later as you moved up with a pretty common number of strokes on a Norton.

Here's how I do the armhair test: Hover the razor at the very tips of the hairs. Othervise it will cut them all, like you said, sharper or duller, no matter. When razor catches the hair, you will learn to tell if the razor is sharp enough by pulling sensation on the hairs: If it is a little painfull, it is not yet sharp enough. It should slice them without pulling... You can set the benchmark with DE blade, wich cuts arm hair wit ease...

Nenad