hone then paste

most people use some kind of finishing paste after there last hone.

I can easily shave of my hones. I still find that paste can and does add smoothness and can squeeze that bit more keeness out of a razor in most cases. My question is what differance do you guys find paste makes and why you use paste or why you would rather not use paste.

I've been shaving straight of hone and then next time round of my choice of finishing paste and to me i find if your razor is well honed paste does put a realy fine edge on a razor that is not possible to gain from hone this is depending on razor . i'd just like to no peoples apinions on this thats all.

I'm not saying you carn't get arealy fine edge of hone.

I use the Dovo Red/Black pastes on a leather paddle strop. I'm not actually convinced they do a great deal. When I get a yellow coticule or fine finishing stone, I probably won't bother.

i tryed red dovo . I now use issards with exallant results followed with cr ox after my coticule or nortons. I always test shave of the hone i won't even think about using any paste untill i'm happy with the shave of hone i will then add my routine paste to see if i can squeeze more smoothness out of the edge.

I rarely use pastes. I either finish off of a Nakayama Kiita or my Shapton 30K. From there, a good stropping usually gets the most out of my edges. If I get a razor that's not quite "there" from someone else, I'll use ChromOx to bring it up to par...:shrug:

I used to feel like using paste was 'cheating' but man that diamond spray on the SRD felt hanger works miracles. It can get a good edge scary sharp with 10 light round trips.

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Originally Posted by richmondesi

I rarely use pastes. I either finish off of a Nakayama Kiita or my Shapton 30K. From there, a good stropping usually gets the most out of my edges. If I get a razor that's not quite "there" from someone else, I'll use ChromOx to bring it up to par...:shrug:

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When you finish with 30K Shapton do you find it is comparable to using a similar .50 micron paste? I guess, I mean to ask is the bevel a similar sharpness or more or less so. Also do you think the edge set on the 30K will hold up longer as a result of being set by honing as compared to "refined by stropping on a paste?"

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Originally Posted by economica

When you finish with 30K Shapton do you find it is comparable to using a similar .50 micron paste? I guess, I mean to ask is the bevel a similar sharpness or more or less so. Also do you think the edge set on the 30K will hold up longer as a result of being set by honing as compared to "refined by stropping on a paste?"

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When we start getting to these levels, we are really into the esoteric realm of the esoteric if that makes any sense. That's to say that there isn't much of a discernible difference IMO. I get really nice edges off of all 3, and the reason for the finishing stone has much more to do with my mood than anything else.

Having said that, I find that the Shapton 30K seems to be slightly sharper but a touch harsher than my Kiita which is slightly less sharp but really smooth. The Chrom Ox paste seems slightly less sharp than both, but still adequate.

Now we get into the what does sharp mean conversation... I guess I mean that the Kiita and Shapton feel more like hot knife through butter (wiping the whiskers away), but the ChromOx still is super sharp and shaves very very comfortably (cutting comfortably)... If there is any real difference (not just perceived), I'm thinking that I'll attribute it to the fact that stones don't allow for any rounding of the bevel... But like I said, more than anything we're talking about how I feel at the time I get finished with my 8K... If I'm feeling zen, I'll use the Kiita and connect with the tradition and warm fuzzies derived from using a natural stone. If I'm not, I'll use my 16K then 30K...

When someone else has already done the hard work, I use the paste. I think it has more to do with my dad than anything else. When a job was almost done, he wouldn't let anyone come help him at the end (if they hadn't been participating throughout the whole task) because he didn't like "glory hogs". When I hone a razor, there's a certain sense of satisfaction that I get from taking a dull razor and making it shave ready. I don't feel like I deserve that satisfaction (I can't own the edge) if all I do is hit it a couple of times on the finishing stone... So, I use the pastes because it just seems more fitting... :needcoffee:

Yes, I know I'm weird, but that's OK :rofl2:

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Originally Posted by richmondesi

I rarely use pastes. I either finish off of a Nakayama Kiita or my Shapton 30K. From there, a good stropping usually gets the most out of my edges. If I get a razor that's not quite "there" from someone else, I'll use ChromOx to bring it up to par...:shrug:

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Really helpful thanks, I was just wondering if there was some discrete difference between the pastes and stones (maybe pastes get you in the ballpark of sharpness but the 30K is better etc.), and I think you answered it pretty well: that the difference is more than likely going to be determined by a personal "feel" or experience/preference, I guess I will just have to try them for myself to see which is a better fit for me.

I've gotten to where I typically go straight to the leather from my 12K naniwa. If the shave isn't "smooth", I take the razor to the pasted strop & back to the leather...works for me. I'm very interested in the diamond paste, but my last relapse of RAD tapped out the play funds. I do have 7 SR's on the way...

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

I used to feel like using paste was 'cheating' but man that diamond spray on the SRD felt hanger works miracles. It can get a good edge scary sharp with 10 light round trips.

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Sometimes a good cheat is just what the doctor ordered :)
Do you use the .25 micron ?

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Originally Posted by gary haywood

I still find that paste can and does add smoothness and can squeeze that bit more keeness out of a razor in most cases.

My question is what differance do you guys find paste makes and why you use paste or why you would rather not use paste.

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Hey Gary,

I think your above statement pretty much sums it up for me. Knowing that you are a coti enthusiast, which is also my weapon of choice, I can say that I have shaved directly off the coti and have been pleasantly surprised. And then sometimes I'll give a razor a few swipes of chrome and be more than happy.

YMMV of course, but in this shaver/honer's opinion there is nothing wrong with a bit of paste to finish 'er off.

Different swipes for different types, eh? :rofl2:

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Originally Posted by Ryan82

Hey Gary,

I think your above statement pretty much sums it up for me. Knowing that you are a coti enthusiast, which is also my weapon of choice, I can say that I have shaved directly off the coti and have been pleasantly surprised. And then sometimes I'll give a razor a few swipes of chrome and be more than happy.

YMMV of course, but in this shaver/honer's opinion there is nothing wrong with a bit of paste to finish 'er off.

Different swipes for different types, eh? :rofl2:

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I just shaved with two razors one TI and one DA the da was honed totaly on coti and the TI coti plus issards then cro ox i shaved oposite sides of face and i have to say they both shaved as well the DA did feel slightly smoother than the TI i will rehone TI on just coti and see if there is a differance i'm sure its just the due to differant razors and The new TI is slightly harder steel maybe. But like your self its handy to have the option and i have to say i never noticed my shaves not lasting as long when they have been slightly pasted .

and my techniques are still highly changeable, but at the moment I'm using a dozen strokes on 1 mic diamond paste then 0.5 Crox after finishing on a coti. Many of my blades are older, with less than perfectly straight edges. I prefer to keep these "irregualities" -- I think they contribute to the character of the blade -- rather than breadknife or hone the edge to perfect straightness. When I'm through, the blade must easily cut dry hair all along the edge, but I feel some parts of the edge may still be more refined than others. Using pastes, I think, gets into every part of the bevel, since there is some "give" on the strop and the medium being used. Anyway, this is what I've been doing on the past ten or so blades, and they've all shaved well. Hope this is clear.

Well Gary you know my take on all this
If the shave off the Coti is not smooth enough I will use Crox about 10 laps on the hanging strop (Both from your good self of course) I am a great believer in the fact that paste will not make a bad edge good, it will however squeeze just that almost indefinable extra keeness or smoothness from an allready good edge.
If my edge is not sharp enough off the hone I will not waste my time with paste, its a much better idea IMHO to go back to the stone and do it right to begin with.

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Originally Posted by tat2Ralfy

Well Gary you know my take on all this
If the shave off the Coti is not smooth enough I will use Crox about 10 laps on the hanging strop (Both from your good self of course) I am a great believer in the fact that paste will not make a bad edge good, it will however squeeze just that almost indefinable extra keeness or smoothness from an allready good edge.
If my edge is not sharp enough off the hone I will not waste my time with paste, its a much better idea IMHO to go back to the stone and do it right to begin with.

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I shaved with both TI and DA as i said the shave of coticule was great i added some paste agian to an already shave ready blades. Now i felt the shave was a little smoother and around my tash wipped it off for me the paste does improve the shave but like you say it will not make up for a under honed razor thats why i like to shave straight of my hone first.

The improvmant for me is smoother still and the razor seems to just glide alot more. what differance do you find ralfy after hitting the cr.ox?

I no bart can hit the same level of coti i can vouch for that as i have tryed his razor honing and its the best edge i have had from a honemeister my razor passes hht on babys head and silently.

I don't know and wish someone could explain what past gives to you stone doesn't?
i don't use any pastes and my razor has enough sharpness and smoothness.

The paste for me gives the shave a bit more smoothness, as in more glide, its hard to define but I would say its a tiny tiny bit sharper and a bit more than tiny tiny bit smoother, my honing skills are vastly better than when I started but I cant produce an edge like Bart does. my hht (not that its a true goal for reasons that I wont go into here) is just "o.k" off the stone, with the paste I can pass it a piece of **** everytime.
I have never had a shave as light and close straight off the stone as I have with Barts honing, IMHO he has truly mastered it.

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Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl

I don't know and wish someone could explain what past gives to you stone doesn't?
i don't use any pastes and my razor has enough sharpness and smoothness.

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I don't see any improvement over my good work on stones either, but sometimes I've gotten edges in that could be improved on pastes. I could improve them on the stones too, but I use the pastes because I'm not 100% sure of whether tape was used on some and the difference in honing technique make me nervous of trying to do touch ups of someone else's edges... I use paste in those cases.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl

I don't know and wish someone could explain what past gives to you stone doesn't?
i don't use any pastes and my razor has enough sharpness and smoothness.

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may be not every ones as experianced as you i no lynn uses paste well in the honing dvd he did and the one on utube actualy i think he highly recomends diamond spray 0.5 i'm sure he says it adds a little glide i find it adds more glide also and a lot of hone meisters do use it for what ever reason differant people differant methods. the previous owner of my barbershop and his dad used rouge back in the days. i find paste can defanatly add extra keeness/smoothness beyond my honing and i think many people do find the same.

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Originally Posted by gary haywood

may be not every ones as experianced as you i no lynn uses paste well in the honing dvd he did and the one on utube actualy i think he highly recomends diamond spray 0.5 i'm sure he says it adds a little glide i find it adds more glide also and a lot of hone meisters do use it for what ever reason differant people differant methods. the previous owner of my barbershop and his dad used rouge back in the days. i find paste can defanatly add extra keeness/smoothness beyond my honing and i think many people do find the same.

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Not only that but everyones face and stubble is different, a soft beard and tough skin will respond very differently to baby skin and stubble like Desperate Dans..lol

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gary haywood

may be not every ones as experianced as you i no lynn uses paste well in the honing dvd he did and the one on utube actualy i think he highly recomends diamond spray 0.5 i'm sure he says it adds a little glide i find it adds more glide also and a lot of hone meisters do use it for what ever reason differant people differant methods. the previous owner of my barbershop and his dad used rouge back in the days. i find paste can defanatly add extra keeness/smoothness beyond my honing and i think many people do find the same.

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I wonder if it has a lot to do with getting a really good edge faster (considering Lynn does hundreds of razors per month) than using an Escher or other natural stone, though? :hmmm:

I don't know the answer to that...

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Originally Posted by tat2Ralfy

I have never had a shave as light and close straight off the stone as I have with Barts honing, IMHO he has truly mastered it.

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You answered your own question.

I'm not sur but i no he hones with naniwas at the moment or was and finishes on the 12k which is as good as it gets. I could easily live with out paste but its been around along time and we all like to try differant methods i only have cro/ox and extra fine issards paste i never use any thing coarser than that as my hone does any thing above that i have some razors in my rotation that are straight of the hone shavers and some that are finished on paste depending on how the shave is of the hone if its 9/10 i will hit the paste for 10 laps maybe 20. other than that i would go back and hone.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl

You answered your own question.

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For sure. you can only that which has room for improvement

I believe Gary was interested in peoples opinions of the improvement they got from pastes, I know Bart will use a paste if He feels the need, as would anyone as far as I know

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gary haywood

most people use some kind of finishing paste after there last hone.

I can easily shave of my hones. I still find that paste can and does add smoothness and can squeeze that bit more keeness out of a razor in most cases.

Quote:

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This is means blade hasn't honed it is maximum sharpness

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My question is what differance do you guys find paste makes and why you use paste or why you would rather not use paste.

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Gary i wont use paste because i think it decrease life of the edge

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I've been shaving straight of hone and then next time round of my choice of finishing paste and to me i find if your razor is well honed paste does put a realy fine edge on a razor that is not possible to gain from hone

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Sorry this is not true

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this is depending on razor

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didn't get this part

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. i'd just like to no peoples apinions on this thats all.

I'm not saying you carn't get arealy fine edge of hone.

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now you are going against your own idea Gary?

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this is the original message Garry posted.

All above just my personal opinion Gary.

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Originally Posted by tat2Ralfy

For sure. you can only that which has room for improvement

I believe Gary was interested in peoples opinions of the improvement they got from pastes, I know Bart will use a paste if He feels the need, as would anyone as far as I know

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Please skip the capital Ralfy, I'm not Jesus.;)

Yes, I use CrO occasionally, but never on razors I hone for my free honing service on Coticule.be
The idea is that people can experience a Coticule edge, and not a CrO edge. They can find out for themselves if a paste will add something beneficial. In the majority of cases it will not.

I'm not sure if Sham suggested that I cheat, or that you have still a lot to learn. :hmmm::roflmao

But seriously. I only rely on CrO as a last resort, if I can't manage to bring a blade to the performance I like. That used to be 9 out of 10 razors, but it's less than 1 out of 10 now.

I have 2 tips for you, Ralfy. Safe your lightest strokes for last. Make them lighter than the weight of the blade. When you feel you have reached the best you can do, strop the razor well. Many people partially get from CrO what they could get from adept stropping.
Second, if the razor is still not quite there (quite is an important work in this sentence), strop it on your Coticule for about 20 round trips and re-strop on linen and leather.

I have no problems with the use of paste, but I like the edges best when I can get them of a Coticule without paste. Robin (Beberlin) has witnessed me hone razors without any paste present in the wide area. As he shaved with those razors, he can answer whether it can be done or not.

Kind regards,
Bart.

I don't use the past as part of the honing process. I use it as a go-to option after about 6 shaves. At that point, stropping doesn't seem to bring the edge back to life as well. 6 to 10 light laps on the Crox on balsa followed by 25 on synthetic or linen and 50 on leather, put the blade close to its original keeness.
When this stops working, I then go to a touchup hone.

Ray

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bart

Please skip the capital Ralfy, I'm not Jesus.;)
Kind regards,
Bart.

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Never Heard of Him? you must excuse my grammar I am English you know ...

thanks for the advice My friend, I always value your opinion highly as you know. P.M. sent

oh yeah and Hi_Bud_Gl... i didnt ask a question or start this thread?

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Originally Posted by tat2Ralfy

Never Heard of Him? you must excuse my grammar I am English you know ...

thanks for the advice My friend, I always value your opinion highly as you know. P.M. sent

oh yeah and Hi_Bud_Gl... i didnt ask a question or start this thread?

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I should say " you answered your own doubts' was my mistake. i guess you won't have problem with that?
i never said you have started this thread you are making this one up?

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Originally Posted by gary haywood

most people use some kind of finishing paste after there last hone.

I can easily shave of my hones. I still find that paste can and does add smoothness and can squeeze that bit more keeness out of a razor in most cases. My question is what differance do you guys find paste makes and why you use paste or why you would rather not use paste.
.....

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Paste on a hanging strop or paste on a balsa hone?

I am of the opinion that a polish on the bevel is as important
as the set edge. I want the steel behind the edge that is in contact
with my face to "slide" and not push a little roll of skin that
then results in a nick.

The "slide" behind the edge is minimized by a good shaving soap/ lather
AND the polish behind the edge. IMO, Since the blade clears most of the soap
from the face the polish is key for me.

Since I do not have a bench full of finishing stones I use a pair of 0.5 diamond
and CrOxide balsa hones and also a year old breath of 0.5 diamond paste on the
canvas side of my strop. Note that my str8s are only as sharp as I like, no more.

By way of comparison a new "feather blade" is almost too sharp. Some would say
harsh. The second or third day is best for me and is how I like to hone/strop
my steel yet I seldom get it exactly right.

Each of us will be different....the EPA says your mileage will vary, and
I suspect your shave will also.

[QUOTE=niftyshaving;497286]Paste on a hanging strop or paste on a balsa hone?

I am of the opinion that a polish on the bevel is as important
as the set edge. I want the steel behind the edge that is in contact
with my face to "slide" and not push a little roll of skin that
then results in a nick.

QUOTE]


I don't think the polished edge has much to do with your shaving experience. Razors finised with Naturals like the Coticule, Escher, Nakiyama, etc. produce some of the most sought after, comfortable shaves some people talk about.
If you were to look at these edges under a microscope, you would see that they look like they are sandblasted. Even the polished edge, you are eluding too, isn't all that smooth either.
If this makes you think you are getting a smoother shave then stick with it. I would, however, recommend that you find a way to try one of the honers that finishes with a natural and see what the difference might be.
If you are interested in something like that, pm me and we can arrange it.

Ray

Pastes give you a finer edge polish if you don't have a stone of comparable grit. Without a 30K Shapton, or Japanese finisher, powders (however suspended) of chromium oxide, aluminum oxide, or diamond will be the way to get a finer polish. I find I can shave just fine with an edge finished at 3 micron, but if I want a 0.5 micron edge, I have a chromium oxide loaded strop.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rayman

...Razors finised with Naturals like the Coticule, Escher, Nakiyama, etc. produce some of the most sought after, comfortable shaves some people talk about.
If you were to look at these edges under a microscope, you would see that they look like they are sandblasted....
Ray

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I have a Nakayama Kiita that leaves the bevel looking a little sandblasted/hazy. So I can vouch for some naturals not leaving an exactly "polished" edge. But it does leave a nice edge. :D

[QUOTE=rayman;497304]

Quote:

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Originally Posted by niftyshaving

Paste on a hanging strop or paste on a balsa hone?

I am of the opinion that a polish on the bevel is as important
as the set edge. I want the steel behind the edge that is in contact
with my face to "slide" and not push a little roll of skin that
then results in a nick.

QUOTE]


I don't think the polished edge has much to do with your shaving experience. Razors finised with Naturals like the Coticule, Escher, Nakiyama, etc. produce some of the most sought after, comfortable shaves some people talk about.
If you were to look at these edges under a microscope, you would see that they look like they are sandblasted. Even the polished edge, you are eluding too, isn't all that smooth either.
If this makes you think you are getting a smoother shave then stick with it. I would, however, recommend that you find a way to try one of the honers that finishes with a natural and see what the difference might be.
If you are interested in something like that, pm me and we can arrange it.

Ray

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Thank you for the offer! My 4k/8k Norton and Coticule does just fine. I should
note I tend to want to touch up between honing and that is when I unwrap my
balsa. I suspect that the key point is that my touch goes away as I work through my
set of str8s.

I only need to pull down the Coticule once maybe twice a year. This is not
often enough to keep the soft smooth touch that is so necessary.

It is true that a natural stone like a Coticule on good steel qualifies as magic.

So, should I sell some of my str8s so I can hone more often or should I buy more
so when I do hone I have more edges to get my touch back with?:)

I personally think, if you are satisfied with the edge you are able to maintain, you shouldn't change anything. What's the point?
Keep doing what you are doing.

Ray

Haven't we got a little off topic here?
I believe Gary was asking:
If you use paste what difference does it make?

I use green Crox after honing if I am not satisfied with the edge, as my skills are improving I find I need it less and less, I never use it for a touch up, if a Razor shaved well before and now lacks the performance I am after I use my Coticule to touch it up

I personally find the longer that you stay on the stones while progressing up the more stable the edge becomes. Now I come off a 30K, then to 0.25 Diamond paste on a paddle strop, then go to a 0.1 micron diamond sheet. The shaves are incredible smooth. Diamond cutting materials are incredibly fast and easy to use. I used to use a paddle strop that went 1.0,0.5,0.25 micron diamond pastes for over a year and got some good edges. As I got the money and killer deals I replaced the 1.0 and 0.5 pastes with the 16K and 30K Shaptons respectively and have never looked back. They offer an edge that is superlative in sharpness and smoothness. The 0.1 sheet just finishes off the edge and cuts the harshness of the 0.25 paste especially after 100 laps on the leather.


Take care,
Richard

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rayman

I personally think, if you are satisfied with the edge you are able to maintain, you shouldn't change anything. What's the point?
Keep doing what you are doing.

Ray

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Ain't that the truth!!

I shaved comfortably just off stones for the first several thousand razors I honed and over time, even after using all the stones mentioned in the thread so far, have come to rely on either pastes or diamond sprays only because they produce a very comfortable and close shaver consistently. Can I do without them? Sure, but why when something works with the kind of reliability I get from them.

I do find that when the 30K Shapton hits, it is pretty close to the .5 pastes or sprays.

Yet another area where I really think there is no right or wrong answer and that personal preference prevails and this is also the case as to whether you use films, flat beds, balsa, felt or anything else out there.

Have fun,

Lynn

Nice to hear or the opinions and thank you to every one.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lynn

..............have come to rely on either pastes or diamond sprays only because they produce a very comfortable and close shaver consistently.............Lynn

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Oh great Honemeister,

I have tried the pyramid you suggest but didn't know what to do after that. Would you mind sharing? I have some 1 and 1/4 micron paste but haven't known what to use them on. Are you using them right after the 8k Norton?

Thanks in advance,

Barry