Hone/Strop Advice needed for first setup!

Hi everyone. I'm new here and just recently decided to try straight razor shaving. I'm just getting together my first setup and I'm hoping to do all this as cheaply as possible, if possible, but I'm beginning to fear there may be some significant initial investment required. I've done a good deal of research, so I'm fairly familiar with all thats required. I've found two razors at my local antique store that seemed nice enough. A thin, more worn razor for practice honing and such that appears to be a Tom & Co. Senato (if that means anything to anyone). The other a thicker heavier (which I hear is recommended for starting) H. Keschner, Solingen, Germany "Diamond" 33 (also have no idea if that means anything, but it looks nice enough.)

I've de-rusted and cleaned/polished them up to a nice shine using very fine sandpaper so they're good to go in that regard. My problem is I don't know which hone I need for them. They're both fairly sharp (certainly not shaving sharp) and pass the fingernail/bevel test. Of course, they don't seem to be anywhere close to passing any sort of Hanging Hair Test. I understand the Norton 4k/8k or Naniwa equivalent is the way to go here, but I'm hesitant to drop that kind of cash right from the get go. I know a pre-honed razor is recommended for this reason, but I feel rather dedicated to the blades I've got already. So, the question is: will a cheaper, finer Chinese 12k/Swaty/etc. stone work well enough if I just hone enough (given it would take much longer)? Or do I have no choice but to use the coarser stones to truly sharpen these razors back to shaving sharpness?

Also, can anyone recommend a good beginner strop? I've heard "filly"s recommended but can't seem to figure out what that might be. I've found some 30 dollar Illinois strops, but it seems like there must be a cheaper alternative for a thing that'll likely get sliced to ribbons in a short time (or so I hear).

Thanks for any help!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Patches

Hi everyone. I'm new here and just recently decided to try straight razor shaving. I'm just getting together my first setup and I'm hoping to do all this as cheaply as possible, if possible, but I'm beginning to fear there may be some significant initial investment required. I've done a good deal of research, so I'm fairly familiar with all thats required. I've found two razors at my local antique store that seemed nice enough. A thin, more worn razor for practice honing and such that appears to be a Tom & Co. Senato (if that means anything to anyone). The other a thicker heavier (which I hear is recommended for starting) H. Keschner, Solingen, Germany "Diamond" 33 (also have no idea if that means anything, but it looks nice enough.)

I've de-rusted and cleaned/polished them up to a nice shine using very fine sandpaper so they're good to go in that regard. My problem is I don't know which hone I need for them. They're both fairly sharp (certainly not shaving sharp) and pass the fingernail/bevel test. Of course, they don't seem to be anywhere close to passing any sort of Hanging Hair Test. I understand the Norton 4k/8k or Naniwa equivalent is the way to go here, but I'm hesitant to drop that kind of cash right from the get go. I know a pre-honed razor is recommended for this reason, but I feel rather dedicated to the blades I've got already. So, the question is: will a cheaper, finer Chinese 12k/Swaty/etc. stone work well enough if I just hone enough (given it would take much longer)? Or do I have no choice but to use the coarser stones to truly sharpen these razors back to shaving sharpness?

Also, can anyone recommend a good beginner strop? I've heard "filly"s recommended but can't seem to figure out what that might be. I've found some 30 dollar Illinois strops, but it seems like there must be a cheaper alternative for a thing that'll likely get sliced to ribbons in a short time (or so I hear).

Thanks for any help!

---

The chances of you successfully honing a razor at this point are near zero. Your best be is to send it out to one of the honemeisters that frequent this board. But before you do that, post a good picture or two so they can tell if there is any hope for the razor. Find a honemeister here: Member Services - Straight Razor Place Classifieds.

Filly strop can be found here: RupRazor - The Filly. Poke around that site for inexpensive razors a well.

Im new to this also but i'll try best I can to help. The first thing I would do is send one of your razors off to get honed, reason being is you will enjoy your shaves far more for one and you will be able to see what shaving sharp really means, you will also have a benchmark to measure your hone job.

For the hones the norton set at amazon is what was recommended to me. With it you could go from start to end, from what ive read some shave off the 8k. If you want to have a smoother edge you could add to that a barber hone for pretty cheap or a chinese 12k or use paste(which the filly has on the back) to refine the edge a little. Another option is to go with a belgium coticule on which you could take a razor from start to finish following the advice in the wiki here at SRP, that will probably be the next hone I buy.

As far as the strop goes, the filly is the base model strop at Rup Razor it is the one I am starting with. Another option which I would have gone with instead if I known about it is a heirloom strop by Tony Miller. It is a top end strop but you can get a practice strop there for 7.50, use the practice strop until you are confident that you wont harm the good one then swap them out and use your first as a travel strop, I went that option too.

The cheapest way to get the soap, mug and brush is walmart from what I read here.

Good luck and have fun. I know I have.

-Jason

Thanks for the strop advice, its very helpful. I think I might have to take Jason's advice and go for the heirloom with a practice strop. The filly looks a little cheap/difficult to use (no handle?) for the $20 asking price and I imagine the practice strop can't be that much worse. Though I suppose the leather quality could be much different perhaps?

As far as the hones go, there seem to be many varieties of belgian coticule, so I'm not sure which one you mean would allow me to go from start to finish. Its looking like biting the bullet with the norton is the only option here besides sending the razors out. But if sending them out will cost $20 each I'd really rather buy the stone and learn to do it myself.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TexasBob

The chances of you successfully honing a razor at this point are near zero. Your best be is to send it out to one of the honemeisters that frequent this board. But before you do that, post a good picture or two so they can tell if there is any hope for the razor. Find a honemeister here: Member Services - Straight Razor Place Classifieds.

Filly strop can be found here: RupRazor - The Filly. Poke around that site for inexpensive razors a well.

---

I'm sorry but I don't understand why it would be nearly impossible for me to hone a razor at this point. Could you elaborate? I've got a lot of experience working with wetstones on knives working as a cook, without the built in guide of a razor. I imagined this would be easier. Is it the threat of over-honing? Or even under-honing, though it seems the sharpness tests are established to help here. Re-setting the bevel would provide a challenge, but if I'm not mistaken both razors have fine bevels as per the the thumbnail test. Is that not an accurate guage? I'm sorry I could just use some clarification here.

In any case, heres some pictures if you're interested, maybe they'll be helpful here. The thinner one is intended for practice mainly, while the thicker one is the one I plan on using primarily:

http://img13.imageshack.us/i/img1198mr.jpg/http://img13.imageshack.us/i/img1198mr.jpg/http://img704.imageshack.us/i/img1201n.jpg/

Imageshack - img1200r

Imageshack - img1199un

Imageshack - img1198f

http://img31.imageshack.us/i/img1198f.jpg/

(sorry about the links, couldn't get the pictures to work for some reason)

Thanks again,
-Patrick

http://img64.imageshack.us/i/img1200.jpg/

http://img20.imageshack.us/i/img1201cv.jpg/

welcome to SRP

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Patches

Its looking like biting the bullet with the norton is the only option here besides sending the razors out. But if sending them out will cost $20 each I'd really rather buy the stone and learn to do it myself.
http://img20.imageshack.us/i/img1201cv.jpg/

---

Well for 2 razors that's certainly the most expensive and time consuming option. It will cost you about $120 and at least a hundred hours before you have an edge that's comparable to what you'll get with $40.
Maintaining the edges where they are should be doable with another $5-$50 and practically no skill. But yes that way you won't learn how to take a chipped edge all the way to a smooth shaver, that's the expensive and time consuming part and there's no way around it.

So you'll have to decide whether in addition to shaving with straight razor you want to save money, or to learn a new skill.

Welcome to SRP Patrick. Here is the SRP Wiki where you will find tutorials on honing and on stropping. Also a beginner's guide, videos giving instruction on all things related to straight razor shaving. It will cost you $15 or $20 bucks to get the razor pro honed. That will give you one to shave with and a benchmark to access your own honing on the other one. That way if you find you like straight razor shaving you can decided on which stones to invest in. I agree that the Norton set or the Naniwa is your best bet if you'll be honing dull razors up to shave readiness. :gl:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gugi

It will cost you about $120 and at least a hundred hours before you have an edge that's comparable to what you'll get with $40.

---

$120? Does that mean that more is required beyond the Norton 4k/8k (which seems to run from $70 to $80) for this particular job? Does that include a strop? I already have a 1k stone on hand that I use for knives if thats any consideration.

I am interested in learning a skill, especially now that I'm coming to the realization that this is not simply a cheap alternative to buying cartridge razors.

Also, thanks for the link Jimmy. I have looked some of that over already but its still helpful. Just getting a single razor honed like you mention is a good idea to consider as well, thanks.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Patches

I'm sorry but I don't understand why it would be nearly impossible for me to hone a razor at this point. Could you elaborate? I've got a lot of experience working with wetstones on knives working as a cook, without the built in guide of a razor. I imagined this would be easier. Is it the threat of over-honing? Or even under-honing, though it seems the sharpness tests are established to help here. Re-setting the bevel would provide a challenge, but if I'm not mistaken both razors have fine bevels as per the the thumbnail test. Is that not an accurate guage? I'm sorry I could just use some clarification here.

http://img20.imageshack.us/i/img1201cv.jpg/

---

I will try to elaborate:

Honing has proven to be difficult to accomplish by those with the right equipment. AT THIS POINT you indicated you do not have the right equipment, and you expressed concern about the sizable investment required. Using a Swaty or chinese 12K is NOT going to be capable of setting a bevel that you are going to be required to reset after sanding a blade to remove rust / cleanup.

Any hones you get are going to need to be lapped / flattened. The tool of choice for that is a DMT course... more expense. It can be done with wet dry sandpaper however - see the honing section for that.

The TNT is not a reliable indicator, and seems to cause allot of problems and confusion for new honers based on the threads I've seen. The test for a razor is cutting hair - even at the bevel setting stage. If you cannot cut arm hair all along the blade while setting the bevel at 1k, moving on to a higher grit is wasted time. You are creating a delicate edge, don't touch it or drag it across your thumbnail unless you want to undo the work you've already done. HHT - It' neat, but not a reliable test either. Cutting hair / shaving is THE test.

If learning to shave with a str8 is your objective, then the advice you received to send out one for honing by a honemiester is sound and based on much experience. Trying to learn to shave and hone at the same time with the same razor with no one there in person to help is asking for disappointment. Oh, it can be done. But it is almost guaranteed you will spend more money and time to get to a good shave than if you had your first razor honed by an experienced honemiester and learned to shave with it and maintain it BEFORE trying honing.

If you think honing seems easy, than stropping should be a piece of cake right. Just look at how many have trouble with stropping then.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Patches

Thanks for the strop advice, its very helpful. I think I might have to take Jason's advice and go for the heirloom with a practice strop. The filly looks a little cheap/difficult to use (no handle?) for the $20 asking price and I imagine the practice strop can't be that much worse. Though I suppose the leather quality could be much different perhaps?

---

That's also a reasonable approach assuming you are pretty sure you will decide to continue on. If you are unsure if you will continue past the "just looking" phase then you may have invested in something you don't need. But, having said that, you can't go wrong with a TM strop. One warning: I don't think the TM practice strop has a handle either (but never saw one so can't be sure). You should check if it is important to you. Oh yes, the Filly will come with CrO2 paste on the reverse side.

Quote:

---

I'm sorry but I don't understand why it would be nearly impossible for me to hone a razor at this point.

---

shooter1 hit the bullseye with his elaboration.

Thanks for clearing that up shooter, especially the info about the tests, that helps quite a bit. I didn't mean to sound like I thought honing would be easy though, just doable with some practice and some patience.

Just another couple quick questions:

How often does a razor need to be honed (on average) once sharp? (so when would buying a hone become necessary. Or is using a paste as would come with the Filly a viable way to extend time between hones?)

Quote:

---

Any hones you get are going to need to be lapped / flattened. The tool of choice for that is a DMT course... more expense. It can be done with wet dry sandpaper however - see the honing section for that.

---

So this means that even the Norton stone will require lapping right off the bat? Thats something I hadn't considered, thanks for pointing that out.

I'm not sure exactly what I'll do about all this yet, but I think you've all set me in the right direction and cleared up a lot of misconception. Thanks for all the help.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Patches

Thanks for clearing that up shooter, especially the info about the tests, that helps quite a bit. I didn't mean to sound like I thought honing would be easy though, just doable with some practice and some patience.

---

this is correct but still requires a bunch of stones

Quote:

---

How often does a razor need to be honed (on average) once sharp? (so when would buying a hone become necessary. Or is using a paste as would come with the Filly a viable way to extend time between hones?)

---

you need to hone the razor when touching up on pasted strop does not refresh the edge any more.

Quote:

---

So this means that even the Norton stone will require lapping right off the bat? Thats something I hadn't considered, thanks for pointing that out.

---

yes any stone(bar diamond stones) before use has to be lapped.

If straight shaving is something you want to do, get one honed by a pro. I found when first starting that even with a perfectly sharp razor it is very uncomfortable until I started to get my angle and pressure down. I can see problems coming when you add frustration to that by trying to get a sharp razor. I was in the same boat pretty much, I thought how hard can it be to sharpen a razor all one has to do is keep it flat on the hones, well take my advice it is harder than it appears. I have honed tons of knives in the past as well and I have yet to get one of my practice blades to the level of shaving, they are sharp as hell just not sharp enough to shave whiskers all along the blade. There are a few honers on here that every once in a while offer a free hone all you have to do is pay for shipping both ways, maybe you'll get lucky and one of them will feel enough pitty for your face to help you out. I am not trying to say you WONT be able to do it but if starting out you want as comfortable of shave as possible as not to turn you off from straight shaving all together get one professionally honed, IMO.

Patches,

You definitely are ahead of the game if you are sharpening your own knives, although you will need finer hones than those used for kitchen knives. And they will need to be flatter, hence the comments on lapping the hones.

The lapping can be done fairly cheaply such as with wet-or-dry sandpaper and a piece of plate glass. I've read of stone tiles being used and this may be just fine; regardless, your substrate for the paper must be flat. Lap with a figure 8 motion and frequently swap ends on the lapped object to balance the forces exerted by your hand. Keep every thing as wet as possible to remove swarf. If you find you love the processes then you can get diamond charged lapping plates.

My personal minimal approach to honing started with a Norton 4k/8k combo and a coticule/Belgian blue natural combo, a cheap but flat granite surface plate, and some wet-or-dry 320 and 600 grit papers. I made a paddle strop and charged it with the Thiers Issard paste for finishing. Since I've been sharpening edged tools all my life, I figured I was home free.

But I wasn't; however, the adventures with honing my first razor weren't a total bust either. I didn't get the razor shaving sharp, but I didn't ruin the edge either. I made the trek from lap it/them to 4k to 8k to some forth and back via the pyramid technique to the coticule with water only, then I watched Lynn's video again which gave me some additional tips. Taking those tips to heart and easing up on the pressure and keeping everything nice and wet eventually got me to an edge I could shave with. My favorite razor now is one which I honed myself.

Oh yes, and there were the demos from my local mentor Randy, known hereabouts as Randydance. These were also of great help.

Good luck (we all started out from a place real close to where you are - and look how well things are working for us now ;))

:beer2:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Patches

$120? Does that mean that more is required beyond the Norton 4k/8k (which seems to run from $70 to $80) for this particular job? Does that include a strop? I already have a 1k stone on hand that I use for knives if thats any consideration.

---

yeah you'll need 1k stone, i didn't realize you already have one.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bruce

Patches,

You definitely are ahead of the game if you are sharpening your own knives, although you will need finer hones than those used for kitchen knives. And they will need to be flatter, hence the comments on lapping the hones.

---

I use the same progression up to 10k as I use for my knives its the same stones: Naniwa Superstone and chosera.
For razors you need to go to much higher grits than with knives.
When sharpening knives you have to lap the stones more often that when you sharpen razors.

Ok, so considering all the advice I've been given I've decided I'd better just send off one of the razors to be honed then work out whether or not I'd like to make the investment to learn to hone myself. Any suggestions for a someone to hone near(ish) to the LA area? I suppose any continental US one will work just as well though, as far as shipping goes.

This is my plan of action as far as I can figure it out with a few questions:

- Send razor off for honing

- Purchase strop (likely the TM Heirloom with a practice, though he seems to have checked out til after the new year, though I doubt I'll be able to get a razor back before then anyhow. Looks like there are some cheap Illinois strops on ebay as well, I've heard good things about those but would anyone recommend them for a starter strop?)

- Purchase paste for practice strop around the time I graduate to the real strop (hopefully the timing works out well enough. Can you go a decent while before using a pasted strop/honing is necessary like I'm assuming here? Just assuming several weeks to a month, hopefully)

- Purchase barber hone/chinese water stone/fine hone for touch ups on razor around or before the time it becomes necessary

- Purchase Norton 4k/8k or similar along with other necessary items TBD to begin learning to hone with second razor (would touching up on the Norton possibly replace the finer barber hone/etc. or are both necessary for touching up a shave ready razor?)

Does that sound about right? Please let me know what you guys think, and thank you for all the advice/guidance so far, its been really helpful and has certainly saved me time, money and possible frustration.

-Patrick

I can give a little advice on the strop. I bought the Illinois 827 strop. It is a nice strop and has a linen side to it as well. Some of the more experienced members use this strop and recommend it. It will cost around 40.

Stropping has proved to be a hard task. It is much harder than it looks.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Patches

Any suggestions for a someone to hone near(ish) to the LA area?

---

I do not know of a honer in the Louisiana area. ;)

You should try the member map here : http://straightrazorpalace.com/vbgooglemapme.php

You may also consider adding your location to your profile. Having some in person help with shaving, stropping, blade maintenance, honing, etc. is invaluable. The BEST money you could spend is buying a drink for those experienced to meet with you in your area to help you get started.

Hey Patches

Im new to SE saving too. . .I bought a razor here on SRP and it was "pro-honed". . .however I also bought a dovo shavette prior and found that even the honed razor needed a bit of stropping to even get close to the shavette shave. In my eyes purchasing a shavette ($30) to get a good idea of what sharp really is would give you a basis for honing and stropping. . .just an idea.

Oh. . .I also bought Lynns video on SE shaving and there is a large section in there on honing. . .way, way more than what I found online.

Good luck!

Max is in LV which I think should be a one day post times, but LA to me (middle of NY) is 2 days, so it's not a dramatic difference anywhere in US.
The illinois strops are good, they are real strops and work very well. Don't have the luxury look and feel of the tony's, or srd's strops though.

I think getting one of your razors honed is definitely the way to start. I wouldn't worry about honing at this point. Concentrate on learning to shave and strop and by the time your razor needs a touch up you'll have had more time to consider what to do, as there are many many options.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vinny

Oh. . .I also bought Lynns video on SE shaving and there is a large section in there on honing. . .way, way more than what I found online.

---

I think it's at least 3 hours, but I've never been able to do more than 15 minutes of it at a time, so don't take my word for it ;)
Lynn doesn't tell you the secret to enduring the honing ordeal.... alcohol. I had to discover it on my own, with the only negative effect that nowadays that doesn't leave me much time for honing.... Catch-22 if I've ever seen one.... uhm yes, cheers!

Patches:

If you haven't bought your razor yet, there are a few sites that are offering sweetheart "Lifetime honing" deals on new razors. That way you won't have to worry about some honing deadline looming ahead...

Also, if you're looking for a practice strop to turn into a pasted strop, the Filly comes clean on one side and pasted on the back. At $20 it's a price you can learn on.

Your idea of gradually adding more "honing responsibility" is just about what my plan is, too. So far I've just got the Filly strop and I just bought another razor (which still needs to be honed) so at least I keep one at home when the other goes out.