Naniwa & Spike Mystery

I have been using the Naniwa 1K, 3K, 5K, 8K & 12K followed by stropping. (Leaving out details of stropping, as it does not apply to question.) Typically, my progression goes thru the hones in order.

Last night, I honed a Spike that mystified me. I set the bevel on the 1K, and used the 3K. All is well, and the razor is sharp. But, by the 12K the razor was noticeably duller. Unacceptably dull.

I repeated every different approach to hone progression. More pressure, light pressure, less or more passes, pyramids, some passes with spine leading (heard helps if overhoned... ?).

After a long time I gave up and stopped after the 3K, stropped and shaved. The blade was sharp at 3K, and sharp after stropping. But, without doubt, still not up to my sharpness standards.

Even more mystifying to me is that the razor shaved well. Can someone explain?

Asking the same question a little more explicitly, does anyone using a similar hone setup ever skip hones? Do you ever skip the top end of hones like I did? Do you ever use the top hone(s), but skip hones in the middle?

Day before yesterday I honed an old TI Spartacus that I got from ebay. The seller sold a lot that had belonged to a barber. Micro chipping not apparent to the naked eye led me to tape the spine and do circles on my 1200 diamond plate. Once the edge was cleaned up I removed the tape and went to the Naniwa super 1k. Did 40 circles on each side and followed up with x strokes and got a good TNT. More x strokes and circles until the razor easily shaved leg hair all across the blade.

X stroke pyramid on the 3/5 starting at 20 and following the procedure Lynn posted in the SRP Wiki. I finished with 15 strokes on the 8k and got one heckuva shave (after 50 and 50 on the strop) Last night I took the blade to the Chinese 12k and did 125 weight of the blade x strokes. One of the smoothest closest shaves I've ever gotten followed.

So this doesn't really answer the question but I don't know the answer. I routinely do a 3/5 pyramid and then test shave. The next night go up in grit to an 8 and then to the 12k naniwa super. FWIW, I have the 2k and the 10k naniwa also but haven't used them yet. So I guess I am skipping some grits. I don't know why your razor appeared to get duller as you went up the ladder.

If it was me I guess I would start over and try fewer strokes as I moved up. With this TI that I mention and with any razor I'm really focusing on getting the bevel setting before I move along. Taking what David Polan said, that most razors with sharpening problems have inadequate bevel setting, I follow that advice and really work on that.

It could be related to the hones themselves @ their respective grit levels.
I have a 3k chosera, that when used with slurry will work very fast on most razors, but will also chip the edged on some razors which to me means that depending on the steel you might have to use stones from different lines. When you go up in the progression with superstones, they become easier to gouge, may be due to that and the steel properties you are damaging the edge?
If possible try other set of stones and see what happens.

no idea what's the actual problem, but here are my thoughts on few things that are definitely wrong.

did you look at the edge under magnification? it is possible that you mistook dull overhoned edge on 1k for sharp.
more troubling is that your progression approach sounds wrong - you seem to be honing without any regard to actual 'progress' on the edge.
you are saying after 1k and 3k the razor was 'sharp', but after 12k it wasn't.
now there are two more hones that you used in that gap, so when exactly did the razor start getting duller, and why did you continue with higher grit hones at that point? and how do you determine how dull the razor is?

I left out a lot of the approaches I used, preferring to ask a more general question. Pyramid honing, etc. Some of what was mentioned above, I tried, and some I didn't.

I will continue to work on this razor until I understand what is happening. I will use the microscope extensively at every stage to get a better idea of what is happening. I welcome other suggestions.

The blade seems like it is softer metal than most vintage blades I've used. If true, it suggests to me the possibility that I have to learn a strategy designed for this type blade.

Re-reading your OP reminded me of something that Bart had pointed out some time ago. When using various hair tests whether HHT or arm hair the razor may appear sharper in the earlier stages and less so as the striations are polished out and they don't catch the hair as they did with the more pronounced striations. I don't know what tests you were using to judge keenness but that is something to consider if cutting hair entered into it.

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

...I don't know what tests you were using to judge keenness but that is something to consider if cutting hair entered into it.

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Good question. Shaving is the test, and the razor eventually passed this test. But, while honing, I wasn't shaving to test, (which I have done on occasion.)

I use the TPT, and a modified HHT. I've honed about 100 razors now. So, have moved from the beginning newbie honer to the confused newbie honer level. During this time, I have somewhat developed a feel for a sharp, good shaving blade based on the TPT. (I run the blade along its length, very lightly, feeling the ease with which it slices into my skin.)

I also use a modification of the HHT where the slicing of the hair is nice if it occurs, but is not the initial focus of the test. Rather, I watch the vibration of the hair at the end of the hair. I always use my own hair. And, I believe I have a sense of the relative sharpness of the blade based on vibration. Set the bevel on 1K and do the modified HHT, and the vibration gives me valuable feedback on the sharpness of the blade. Is it sharp enough so the edge is dropping into the "chinks" between hair sections?

Even if the hair is not cut, after I used the modified HHT along its length, I have a pretty good idea which sections of the blade are sharper.

So, JimmyHAD, that is how I'm judging sharpness. Based on the TPT and the modified HHT, I believe the blade is less sharp by the time I get to the upper hones.

When I start getting frustrated with a razor, I find it's best to put it down, stop honing for a while, then resume with other blades. Once I've cleared my head and reassured myself that I do indeed know how to hone, I'll come back to the problem blade for a fresh start - including reinspecting/reassessing the razor.

If you can't hone anything else, then it's time to look into a number of things. Are you really setting good bevels (can you shave arm hair with them? how is TNT or TPT?), are all your hones well lapped, have you gone through a progression with no pressure all the way, what is the edge like at each step of honing? You really need to do investagative work to figure out which step is causing the problem, rather than saying method x, method y, and method z all fail to produce the final result I want.

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Originally Posted by holli4pirating

When I start getting frustrated with a razor, I find it's best to put it down, stop honing for a while, then resume with other blades. Once I've cleared my head and reassured myself that I do indeed know how to hone, I'll come back to the problem blade for a fresh start - including reinspecting/reassessing the razor.

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you must've been to medina recently... :p

Skip Medina. Clear the room of pets and children and take that problem razor and play straight razor darts...

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Originally Posted by LarryAndro

I will continue to work on this razor until I understand what is happening. I will use the microscope extensively at every stage to get a better idea of what is happening.

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yep, that's the way to do it, check carefully the progress at every stage and you'll figure out what is actually happening. The microscope can reveal some problems, but it may be the other tests that are more useful.
keep us updated with what you find.

but if the blade passed the shaving test, what is the problem?

TPT, at least in my experience -- I've posted about this, and others have agreed -- is not very useful after setting the bevel. On a fully refined blade, the "sticky" sensation is muted.

There is so much disagreement about the HHT, with some finding it useful, others not, that this simply may not be useful for you.

Bottom line, if it passes the shave test, who cares whether it fells hanging hairs or feels sticky on your thumb pad?

The purpose of a honed razor is to cut through (still attached) hair. If it does this efficiently along the entire bevel without tugging or skipping, it is well-honed.

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Originally Posted by pcb01

but if the blade passed the shaving test, what is the problem?

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This will sound like a smart ass reply. But, it is not. (I worship analogies.)

The Wright brothers noticed that their plane used more runway during hot weather. Why?

This razor "flies." But, it acts differently than any other razor, and I want to know why? I suspect if I understood why, it would give me "something" of benefit, some understanding that will stand me in good stead with other razors.

...and not trying to be a smart a**. Did the Wright Brothers ever figure out why warmer weather made a difference?

I also sometimes worry why one edge responds differently than another. And, if and when I figure it out, I often learn something valuable. But sometimes I remain puzzled, and I'm just happy it's sharp, and I can shave with it.

We remember the Wright Brothers because they made something heavier than air fly. Do we remember the guy who figured out how temperature affects the coefficient of friction between rubber and asphalt?

Who manufactured the razor ?

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Originally Posted by JMS

Who manufactured the razor ?

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Union Cutlery, Olean NY

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Originally Posted by LarryAndro

Union Cutlery, Olean NY

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So it is likely a full hollow ground?

I have just been informed by Ivan in the chat that you may be talking about the brand "Spike" and not the point which will of course make this razor a wedge.

If they're the ones I'm thinking of, they are about quarter hollow.

I was just talking with JoeD about this today, and he shared some of his knowledge on the subject with me. Roughly: Different hones work differently on different blades based in part on the hardness of the hone (abrasive and binder) and the hardness of the steel. I don't remember all the details about how, though; just a rough idea that I wouldn't want to post (don't want to risk misinformation).

Right. It is the Spike model, and not the spike tip. I guess the "S" was too subtle. (Which is my way of saying, the "failure to communicate" lies with me.)

It is almost a wedge.

Holli4Pirating. Why worry about misinformation? I never could stand guys like you that tried to be different than the rest of us! :)

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Originally Posted by holli4pirating

If they're the ones I'm thinking of, they are about quarter hollow.

I was just talking with JoeD about this today, and he shared some of his knowledge on the subject with me. Roughly: Different hones work differently on different blades based in part on the hardness of the hone (abrasive and binder) and the hardness of the steel.

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what I said in my post earlier in the thread.

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Originally Posted by mainaman

It could be related to the hones themselves @ their respective grit levels.
I have a 3k chosera, that when used with slurry will work very fast on most razors, but will also chip the edged on some razors which to me means that depending on the steel you might have to use stones from different lines. When you go up in the progression with superstones, they become easier to gouge, may be due to that and the steel properties you are damaging the edge?
If possible try other set of stones and see what happens.

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Originally Posted by mainaman

what I said in my post earlier in the thread.

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No, that's not what I was thinking of. I have limited experience on Naniwas (maybe honed 25 razors on them), but I've never heard of gouging one during normal honing, regardless of the razor being used, and I can't think of how you would gouge one during normal honing. I've seen Naniwas that have had hundreds or thousands of razors honed on them, and no gouges there at all. I also can't imagine a Naniwa chipping a razor, even with slurry, given how soft those hones seem to be, but if you say it's happened to you, I don't disbelieve you. Also, the Chosera and the SuperStones are two different lines of hones.

What JoeD was telling me was about the hardness of the steel (how tough it is to cut), the hardness of the abrasive in the hone and the rate it breaks down, and the toughness of the binder and how resistant it is to releasing old grit to allow you to reach new grit.

I really like the superstones. They do load up and I hone in front of the sink and lap from time to time to clean swarf but I find them to be really good in that they cut fast enough to let you know you're making progress but not too fast if you watch what you're doing. I haven't run into any chipping on edges or gouging of the rocks on my set yet.

When metal comes off during honing, undoubtedly subsequent honing action grinds the removed metal into the hone. This is unavoidable. Since I started scrubbing the hone with a rag often, while spraying water over the hone, the buildup of swarf occurs much less rapidly. And, I lap less frequently.

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Originally Posted by holli4pirating

No, that's not what I was thinking of. I have limited experience on Naniwas (maybe honed 25 razors on them), but I've never heard of gouging one during normal honing, regardless of the razor being used, and I can't think of how you would gouge one during normal honing. I've seen Naniwas that have had hundreds or thousands of razors honed on them, and no gouges there at all. I also can't imagine a Naniwa chipping a razor, even with slurry, given how soft those hones seem to be, but if you say it's happened to you, I don't disbelieve you. Also, the Chosera and the SuperStones are two different lines of hones.

What JoeD was telling me was about the hardness of the steel (how tough it is to cut), the hardness of the abrasive in the hone and the rate it breaks down, and the toughness of the binder and how resistant it is to releasing old grit to allow you to reach new grit.

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I said this among other things in my post

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to me means that depending on the steel you might have to use stones from different lines

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different stones respond differently to different steels.

My freshest example was a Japanese straight razor, I had to set a bevel and remove some chips, so I started on 1k, with no slurry but the steel was very hard so I made slurry and I got great result.
I proceeded on 3k Cosera with slurry and amazingly enough I saw microchipping, which honed out with no slurry. I have never had a problem with slurry on the 3k Chosera before.

As far as gouging this was overstatement, since the raozr is fixed on the surface unlike a knife, but if Larry has the chance to try a stone that is not naniwa SS @3k+ level, I am sure that will give insight of what is going on, provided the bevel is set properly on his 1k SS.

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Originally Posted by LarryAndro

When metal comes off during honing, undoubtedly subsequent honing action grinds the removed metal into the hone. This is unavoidable. Since I started scrubbing the hone with a rag often, while spraying water over the hone, the buildup of swarf occurs much less rapidly. And, I lap less frequently.

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maybe this has something to do with it. with light continuous lapping a consistent surface is maintained, making it easier to judge what one or another edge is doing.

Or could be VES, the old vintage edge syndrome. Sometimes it just happens that only after enough of the old is removed does the edge begin to act normally.