Barber Hones For Newbies

Almost every day I get asked about what barber hone someone should start with to either get a razor sharp or to keep it going. These are usually from people not yet ready to splurge on a Norton and of course they need to be hones that are easy to find. Out of the choices available from Tilly, www.redtrader99.com what would you suggest? Maybe a both a medium and a fine?
I actually own one of eveything she has but am just starting out with them so have little to base my choices on. I have had my best results with the Kimberly hone (the light grey one) and the Cushion Hone. I also use the perforated one on occasion too.

So:
If you were choosing a pair what would they be?

If you were choosing only one, what would it be?


Thanks,
Tony

Tony, I see tilly has made a beginner's setup with three of her hones: Lithide hone, Gem and the Cushioned Strop hone. I guess that's what you need to keep the razor sharp.

cheers,
Nenad

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Originally Posted by Tony Miller

I have had my best results with the Kimberly hone (the light grey one) and the Cushion Hone.

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I'm in the same boat with the barber hones. Do you use the Kimberly to cut deeper grooves like the 4000 grit stone would and then the cushion to smooth it down some or what?

X

There are so many people asking what hone to get from Tilly and so few of us took the plunge and picked up an alternate to the Norton. I for one can’t wait to see what the out come is on this thread, because I’ve wanted to pick up a couple of Tilly’s hones for some time now.
Maybe someone tight with Tilly could inspire her to come and give us a brief run down in her own words?

I was told back when I was deliberating over getting the Norton or what ever else, that the “it’s a peach” hone is an excellent finishing hone. I was this close *holds up two fingers* to getting the “it’s a peach” but I found a good deal on the Norton and the logical choice was the combination hone for only $15 more

I got a beginner set from Tilly (gem, cushioned strop and lithide) and I think it works well for my skill set. I managed to get one of my eBay special sharp enough to shave with but it could use some work. I'm sure it's my technique but for the most part, it works for me! :shrug:

Tilly is offering a set? I'll have to check it out.
I do have a bunch of Tilly hones, but no lithide;
Here's my take on some of the ones I own:

Itsapeech-this is an amazing finishing hone IMHO. I've actually improved an edge with it after leaving the Norton. Very glassy finish, no idea what grit, but pretty sure its well over 8000 grit; the 8k Norton feels coarse compared to this thing.

Peaches & Cream: This is a 2 sided combo hone, fairly coarse on one side, and velvet smooth on the other (3k/8k, just a guess) VEERRRRY handy hone. Works well with lather.

3-Line American Swaty-I read somewhere its a combo hone but have a difficult time telling the difference. It does a good job, sortof in the middle "jack-of-all-trades" hone. Not coarse, not superfine. Sortof in the middle.

Skute-I don't know if she has any more of these. Combo hone, this thing is made of a soft waxy substance, and will nick if you raise up the spine of the razor. Sortof handy because when it is clogged or just needs lapping, no sandpaper, etc is needed. Just wipe it with a cloth soaked in turpentine, (per directions!) and the old, smooth layer just sloughs off revealing new hone surface...Perhaps 3k/7k(?), it wins points for just being cool.

Velvet edge-I like this hone pretty well. Very similar to the Itsapeech, although somehow not QUITE as smooth. If there is a huge price difference (I got the Itsapeech when they were still "cheap") this one is perhaps more economical for similar performance. Probably well over 8k, but again, not quite as smooth as the Itsapeech.

Cushion strop-hone-I got this one from Tony, and he has expertly renewed these by attaching cork padding and a new leather stropping surface on one side, bringing it to similar conditions as when these were originally marketed. Excellent work, I just haven't had opportunity to try one. My advice? grab them while they're still available.

Dubl Duck-(not from Tilly) This is a combination hone, and as barber combination hones go, it is very high on my list. I can get very good edges with this one.

Perforated hone-I've had decent luck with mine. Has holes in the middle of the stone supposedly to remove the wire edge before it is created, during the honing process. Stone seems to clog fairly quickly, but does a pretty decent job.

Franz Swaty-purchased dirt cheap($7-for the "old sharpening rock") at a gun show from a guy who apparently didn't know what it was for-this is a great hone, real nice velvety feedback when honing, not sure what grit to throw this into, but it does a really nice job.

There are others, but I've already typed a novel.
Anybody else has some barber hones, feel free to add, maybe this will help out folks looking to try them out (?)
Just a thought,
John P.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JohnP

There are others, but I've already typed a novel.
John P.

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Bravo!!
Novel or not, this is exactly the kind of info I think Tony was seeking and I know I was needing haha..
Thanks for the run down, I know it'll help a lot.

I just talked to tilly, and she has advised that the Lithide is maybe what I need for refining the 8000 edge... Well, that's my order. I will post my impressions...

Nenad

Okay, here is the scoop from Tilly. I asked her today about applications for the hones:

""The beginner package is for those who are starting out and want to to
sharpen ebay or used razors....
The fine hones i have for touch ups and maintaining the razors keenness-
Lithide, itsapeech, are the best....I push the lithide because it easier
to use.....but it has to be lapped good!

The rest of the hones can accomplish the same thing in an experienced
hand....

most of the other hones are med/ to med/ fine...
Little devil is a great lapping hone as well as a more med/coarse
hone...

cushion strops are fastcutting and eccellent for setting an
edge.......dull razors ect... ""

I used the Kimberly in place of the 4K Norton and then a few swats across the perforated front, then the back and off to the paddle strop and I ws pleased. I actually had better luck than I did on my Norton.

Tony

I have lots of hones. I think my favorite finisher is Honemaster. It's very fine.

I'm gettinghones in hopesof minimizing my use of the Norton 4/8K. It's a mess. Wherever possible I try to use a dry hone, for convenience.

The big problem has always been the coarser grits. I haven't found a barber hone that really does it. I have a very fine diamond that I use to start a new edge or for a bad chip. It's about 1200 and very fast. i don't think I'd use anything coarser. I also have a Spyderco fine, which is something like 3K or 4K. I can use both of hese dry, and that covers me at the low end.

The medium and fine are covered by barber hones. I think the Wester brothers is the only real medium. The cushion strop is finer, but quick. I don't think any are coarser thean 5K.

I have a bunch of two sided hones, but their coarse isn't as good as the Wester and their fine isn't really that fine.

I keep two baber hones at the sink for instant use. I mostly use a Swaty for quick touchups while shaving, Just a few swipes work magic. It's a fine hone, but very fast. The other one os a Victory dry hone/strop I picked up on Ebay. It has a really fine stone on one side and a hard plexiglass type material on the other which is the strop. One swipe on it is supposed to be like 10 on leather. It is mor effective. If I have to strop at the sink, I use that. I'll also use the stone side dry before a shave if the razor seems to need it.

I have two new acquisitions that I haven't tried yet. One is a Droescher water hone. It comes with a Nagura stone. The other is an old Belgian yellow/blue. I want to try that corticle! I understand the blue side is too slow for a 4K.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Joe Lerch

I'm gettinghones in hopesof minimizing my use of the Norton 4/8K. It's a mess. Wherever possible I try to use a dry hone, for convenience.

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Give that Norton 8K a try dry for touch up's.
I use my Norton 8K as a touch up hone now that I have the bloody razor good and sharp, and it works like a charm.
I did clean, lap, rinse and re-rinse the hone so it’s like new now. The razor glides across like velvet with the slightest drag, and usually only two passes per side will bring the edge back to excellence for me.

I was kind of reluctant to use the Norton dry with the big deal they make about soaking it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kelly

There are so many people asking what hone to get from Tilly and so few of us took the plunge and picked up an alternate to the Norton.

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For me, I'd pick up a Norton only as an alternate to Barber hones ;)

Hal

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Joe Lerch

I was kind of reluctant to use the Norton dry with the big deal they make about soaking it.

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Haha... well spending $60 on a synthetic (man made) water hone can make one be overly cautious. Personally, I love Norton products, but feel they are a trifle over priced. That alone is the reason I've never purchased one over 1000grit for my knives.

I didn’t see too much emphasis placed on using the 8K with water, in fact it was the lacking emphasis that encouraged me to try it. The pamphlet that came with hone states to 'soak the 4k side for 10min' prior to use but only says that a 'slight splash' of water is necessary for the 8k side. So tossing caution to the wind I went for broke and was very pleased with the results.

Keep in mind we are talking about those subtle, 2-3 gentle pass style touch up's, not actual honing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by halwilson

For me, I'd pick up a Norton only as an alternate to Barber hones ;)

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I purchased the Norton because my razor was pretty much trashed (by my own hand to make matters worse) and I knew I'd need a hone with dual purpose and a good track record haha... Now that I have my razor shaving sharp and I know what I'm doing a little better.. I think a couple of good barber hones would suit me better, If for no other reason that convenience.

The 8"X3" bench hone is great for knives but just too bulky IMO for razors. I've never used more than half the hone at any time anyway. I wish they would produce the 8K in a 6"X2", and you'd have the best available, current production, "barber/razor hone".

I was surfing my favorite edge toy retail site (knifecenter) last night and noticed they were now selling the Spyderco Ceramic Bench hone (Ultra Fine) described as "razor hone"!?!
I went to the Spyderco forum (because I'm a Spydie-nut my self) and did a search and there are a few people there being advised to use that hone on old straight razors. I'd be interested in any experiences with this hone since it was my impression that it was some where in the 4K-6K range.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kelly

The 8"X3" bench hone is great for knives but just too bulky IMO for razors. I've never used more than half the hone at any time anyway. I wish they would produce the 8K in a 6"X2", and you'd have the best available, current production, "barber/razor hone".

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I am with you on this. I hone all (6 of them) my razors at one sitting, and hone holding the Norton in my hand. After some time, my left hand is starting to fall off, and the hand with the razor follows, forcing mistakes... the barber hones come in smaller dimensions for this exact purpose...

Nenad

It is interesting that hand holding the stone seems to work better other than it's bulk.
Even on paddle strops I notice a difference. If I use my paddle flat on a table I have more difficulty keeping the razor flat than when I lay the strop across my knee and let it "float" along with the movement of the razor.

Tony

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kelly

I was surfing my favorite edge toy retail site (knifecenter) last night and noticed they were now selling the Spyderco Ceramic Bench hone (Ultra Fine) described as "razor hone"!?!

I went to the Spyderco forum (because I'm a Spydie-nut my self) and did a search and there are a few people there being advised to use that hone on old straight razors. I'd be interested in any experiences with this hone since it was my impression that it was some where in the 4K-6K range.

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I have one and it seems finer than even 8K. I've heard some estimates that it could be close to 12K. The fine is around 4K.

Hello Kelly,

I have the Spyderco med-fine-ultrfine hones and have used them on razors.
I have put them away.
When the hone is new it has "high points" that will immediately chip a razor.
You have to lap the hones to remove the "high points" and be sure to also do the same thing to the edges. The reason is simple. The grit in those hones is harder then the razor. So when the razor meets the hone guess which one wins? The hone.
The dimensions of the hones seems awkward to me. I am far more comfortable with the 3" Norton or a barber hone.

However, that being said in all fairness some other people are using those hones and really like them. Just be sure to remove the "high points" before using the hones.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kelly

was surfing my favorite edge toy retail site (knifecenter) last night and noticed they were now selling the Spyderco Ceramic Bench hone (Ultra Fine) described as "razor hone"!?!
I went to the Spyderco forum (because I'm a Spydie-nut my self) and did a search and there are a few people there being advised to use that hone on old straight razors. I'd be interested in any experiences with this hone since it was my impression that it was some where in the 4K-6K range.

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Joe Lerch, that’s an interesting comparison. There has been many attempts to get a straight answer on the relative grit of Spyderco Hones to no avail. Sal, the company rep on the board avoids the question like the plague. Sal’s response is always:

“grit measurement on ceramic does not work like regular abrasives. The particle size is 15 microns. The grit is the result of the firing processes. Medium, fine and ultra fine.

Sal”

And that is about as “technical” an answer as anyone ever gets out of Sal.

The guru’s there rate the ultra fine at 4K-6K at best. In fact this is the first time I've heard anyone suggest it even close to the 8K range of the Norton. One of the members there gave a fairly good perspective (for those of us used to traditional water stones) where he allegedly used the scratch pattern as viewed under microscope as his basis:

“Sal has said many times that it is very difficult to define a grit rating for the ceramic rods or stones. So the grit rating for the ceramic stones should be taken with a grain of salt. from personal experience I would say that by comparison with japanese waterstones the grays would fall in the 700-1000 range, the whites I would rate around 2000-3000, and the ultrafine rods at around 4000-6000 grit. This is all japanese grit ratings (obviously). Abrasives are usually rated by particle size, but the ceramic stones do not consist of individual particles, so I compared the scratch pattern at the edge under a microscope. In the end I guess the best way to lable those ceramic stones is like Sal said: medium, fine, ultra fine. This, by the way corresponds quite well with the japanese consideration of their stone grits: coarse up to about 700, medium 1000-2000, and finishing stones 4000-15000, where the finishing stones are usually devided into a first and second step (sometimes more). First step at 4000-6000, second step: 8000-15000 the latter usually being made to correspond to various natural stones. The above is only a very rough description and somebody who finishes for example swords for a living would probably take offense. I just tried to give a very rough overview on what is out there. In the end, many people still prefer natural stones over man made stones, and those aren't grit rated either. So medium fine and ultrafine is probably more than precise enough for most people."

I still think the designation of “medium”, “fine” and “ultra fine” are too generalized for most knife enthusiasts.

With the trend on doing “tests” here recently, this would be a fun one for someone with both the Spyderco Hone and a microscope.

Randy, your experience with the ceramic material is sadly not uncommon. Anyone using a new ceramic hone even for knives would be well served to lap the bloody thing prior to use. They are notorious for having raised material and "floating" particles that dig deeply into the blade untill worn down slightly.

Personally I would prefer the 2” hone because the blade would erode/ware the hone equally through out the width of the hone. Leaving only the ends to keep an eye on for lapping. Plus I have small hands and the smaller and lighter nature would be more comfortable for me. Your right, holding the hone can and does make all the difference in your technique. But, of course size and technique is a matter of personal experience and perspective.

Its good to hear that there is yet another option for those who may want to stray away from the Norton for what ever reasons. Options are always a good thing, and at the price of $45 it’s a trifle cheaper than the usual Norton, even in single grit (based on common retail that is)

Hi Guys ... I'm having the afore mentioned set sent to me along with a ready honed Dovo ( i currently have a shop purchased not shave ready dovo ) can't wait to have a good shave with the shave ready Dovo .
Yourselves and Tilly mention Lappling and 'several laps ' with the hone is this simply a term for honing your razor or is this something that should be done prior to introducing your razor to the hone ...
Looking forward to reading your advice guidance
Garry ...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Garry

Yourselves and Tilly mention Lappling and 'several laps ' with the hone is this simply a term for honing your razor or is this something that should be done prior to introducing your razor to the hone ...
Looking forward to reading your advice guidance
Garry ...

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Lapping is jus trueing or flattening the stone. THey have special diamond stones for it, but it can be done as simply as 600 or higher sandpaper on a wet glass sheet. Tilly sells a Little Devil hone which is great for it and cheap. It's also a pretty fast medium hone, but I don't use it that way because it's too small for my hand.

I always lapa new stone until it's flat ans smooth, which is maybe why I've never noticed anything on the Spydercos.

Ah thankyou .. I have one of Tilly's begginer set's coming over to the uk at some point , a valuable piece of advice before I start trying to hone , considering i've never honed before i could have had disasterious results .. I have a little DMT diamond stone i could use to prep the hones once they arrive...
Thanks for the advice .
Garry

This is a very interesting thread. I would be interested in finding out how many razor those of you who have posted here, have honed to date. Thanks. Lynn

Hi Lynn , firstly thanks for sharing the vid .. thats been great help to me, before joining the group I wrecked one of those ebay 'rockwell' specials trying to hone it on a draper wetstone. So to date I've attempted 1 razor . I'm going to use this razor as my tester for honeing . I have a lovely new Dovo still waiting to be honed , I'm been so impatient Ive shaved with it twice, which wasn't actually too bad .I had been using one of these disposable ( I can only describe it as a craft knife ) razors which left a lovely 1 inch nick on my jaw line .. the Dovo left like heaven compared .. I'll keep eveyone posted once my hones arrive .
Thanks
Garry

*** Gary: Yes! Stay with the Dovos. I started with one and will stay faithfully with them.
"You always can go up, but you can’t go down".
I also have strayed a bit with JA Henckels. I have bought 2 - on eBay... I know what the "group" thought IS about this and the risk involved in the eBays specials, but each time, the seller was in Germany and both times, the razor truly WAS "shave ready". I don’t know, but those guys [Germans] not only have companies that make excellent blades, but the people there know how to "treat" them too. A very "Knife/Sharp" conscious culture!

***Joe:
Explain this "600 or higher sandpaper on a wet glass sheet" procedure in detail. And would this be acceptable for Belgian blues and Shapton Pros... I just need something to knock off the "high points" of brand new hones.

Thanks!

J

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Joe Lerch

Lapping is jus trueing or flattening the stone. THey have special diamond stones for it, but it can be done as simply as 600 or higher sandpaper on a wet glass sheet. Tilly sells a Little Devil hone which is great for it and cheap. It's also a pretty fast medium hone, but I don't use it that way because it's too small for my hand.

I always lapa new stone until it's flat ans smooth, which is maybe why I've never noticed anything on the Spydercos.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by adjustme69

This is a very interesting thread. I would be interested in finding out how many razor those of you who have posted here, have honed to date. Thanks. Lynn

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Well, I started this hoby of mine ~8 months ago, with one dull DOVO stainless razor and Norton 4/8K hone. With great help from Kelly and Randy managed to bring the DOVO shaving sharp, though not so comfortable. Since, my razor collection has growed to 6 razors. I have tough beard and get about 5 to 10 shaves out of a freshly honed razor. I am managing to keep all my razors comfortably sharp with only the Norton combo, but I believe they could be sharper. That's why I ordered two of the tilly's barber's finishing hones (the Belgian coticule and 15K Shapton Pro are a bit salty for me at the moment:) ) So far I have learned that the Norton stone cuts better when clean, and the yellow side does not benefit from soaking, it becomes "gummy", and cuts less... Maybe I will soak the white Norton only, and give the yellow a little splash or spray of water.

So, that's it. I am no expert :o , but I try to help as much I can, remembering my strugle to get descent edge when first starting out...

cheers,
Nenad

I get the feeling I've got a very steep learning curve ahead of me

Quote:

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Originally Posted by adjustme69

This is a very interesting thread. I would be interested in finding out how many razor those of you who have posted here, have honed to date. Thanks. Lynn

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I've done 45-50.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jmorehead

***Joe:
Explain this "600 or higher sandpaper on a wet glass sheet" procedure in detail. And would this be acceptable for Belgian blues and Shapton Pros... I just need something to knock off the "high points" of brand new hones.

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There used to be a video here by Brian Donofrio. I think it should still be here or at the Yahoo group. If you can't find it let me know and I'll find the URL for Brian's site.

That would be appreciated .. I've just found out my ebay purchased hone has arrived from the good ol' US ( not one of Tilly's tho ) so I can get practising with my nasty ebay 'rockwell' -my short holiday time is starting to look better . Had another shave with new new unhoned Dovo last night -- no more ! it was a little more painful than the other night .

Found them over on the yahoo group .. cheers just about to watch it .
http://homepage.mac.com/briandonofri...Sharing87.html

thanks .. Garry

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Garry

I get the feeling I've got a very steep learning curve ahead of me

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I did. I had two major stumbling blocks. First, I was trying to get my razors as sharp as a Feather and couldn't do it. When I adjusted my standard it became a lot easier.

Second, the various hair cutting tests didn't work for me with any razors honed by anyone. So I had to find another test that would work. I had to learn the thumb and thumbnail tests, which took a while.

You may have it a lot easier. You never know. The only recommendation I would have is not to jump in to a razor project without knowing where you're going. That means that you need to develope a test you can work with. Shaving is the ultimate test, but it's very frustrating constantly going back and forth between shaving and honing. If you're not working with an Ebay butter knife, you may not need to do a lot of work. There's a tendency to over do until you your sea legs. That's why a plan is so important.

What I find from the boards is that newbies will often dull an edge because of improper stropping. You need to hold the strop firmly to prevent sag and a rounded edge. I started by using one on a supporting surface, like a paddle strop. The other misteake is turnning the razor over improperly. You want to support it on the spine and roll it over carefully. If you support it on the edge or raise the spine while the edge is touching, you'll dull the edge.

Good luck and have patience.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Garry

Had another shave with new new unhoned Dovo last night -- no more ! it was a little more painful than the other night .

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It probably needs a little honing, with emphasis on little. Work with your slowest hone and do no more than 5-10 round trips at a time until you get a feel for how fast it works.

Before you start, try a thumbnail test. It and the thumb test are explained in th the section of the barber's manual that's in our documents. The blade should feel like it's biting in a little and be totally smooth. If it slides over the thumb without bite, it's dull and if you feel bumps as as it moves over the nail, you have chips. In either case you'll need to hone until you get the smooth bite. Then do a few more round trips just to remove the effect of the thumbnail.

At that point try the thumb test where you support the blade wih the edge up and slide the thumb gently ACROSS the blade near either end and the middle. The thumb should not slide smoothly, but should grab or resist the movement of the thumb at all three locations as it passes over. Try it with a fresh single sided razor blade to see what I mean. You'll also feel an edge rather than a surface.

When that happens you can go to the strop for 30 laps. There was an experiment done here that suggests that 60 laps is better than 30. Try the thumb test again and see if the razor grab has increased and you can feel the edge more. If you can't feel a difference, just go to an arm shaving test or hanging hair. If you're really popping hairs, the razor is ready for the shave test. If you're not, but you're cutting hair without any noticeable pull, I would try it anyway. The final test is the shave. It should be better than before. If you feel the razor pulling a little, go back to you finest hone and do just a few round rips as if you were refreshing the razor, then test again. At first, there's a lot of trial and error, but chip away at it, because the most frustrating error is overdoing.

Excellent advice .. thanks , I couldn't find a better description myself for that ebay monstorsity. Im off home to now lap my little ebay hone and from there I'll begin - slowly and lightly of course ....

thanks again and happy holidays .

Garry

Well the holidays are over and I can say with a smile and clean shaven face - I think managed to hone my dovo to give a reasonable shave, I'll know better once my 'shave ready' ( it will be prepared by another shaver ) one arrives . I took your advice and also watched the video and took things slowly . the little ebay hone I purchased is nice , pre owned and also used > http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...MEWN%3AIT&rd=1
it does this business tho - still I can't wait to get my set from Tilly and no doubt I'll get a new strop also. I've been using the one that came with my ebay 'butterknife' , even my stropping technique seems to be improving vastly ... slow n easy with a gentle touch !!! is the way to go
thanks Garry