Over Honing

I hate to sound dumb, but I have read the stuff here about honing and I do not understand over honing. I would think that the sharper the razor the better. Does over honing mean the edge is too thin? If so, then how can that happen if you keep the spine on the hone. The angle should be right.
I also read that if you go back to the last coarser hone and back hone a few strokes and then go forward to the next smoother hone it can fix the problem. If that is true why wouldn't it be ok to just back hone a few strokes before moving forward to the next smoother hone every time you hone any razor. Would that prevent over honing ?

Yes, this seems to be a somewhat vague topic. Here is my mental image of what it means:

Once you hone to an optimum level, continued honing won't make things better and it may even make things worse in certain circumstances. The edge may get worse due to burring, flaking, folding, or forming a flimsy fin. The actual outcome depends on numerous factors including the nature of the steel, the hone, and the user. So if you hone beyond the optimum and the edge has deteriorated, then you've over honed.

I cant remember for sure who it was(greg, glenn?) or where it was(on srp just cant remember the thread) but he said that he has only seen one overhoned razor and that was one he had purposely tried to over hone. He dared people to take an old razor and a course stone and sit there and hone and hone and hone and see just how much work it actually takes to overhone a razor. On the otherhand he said that he has seen tons of underhoned razors and he felt that was the real thing to watch for, if I remember right, especially for beginners.

-Jason

Yes that was me and yea that was correct...

In fact the last two posts are correct...


Mack honestly the way to understand what it is, and how hard it is to do, and how easy it is to correct, is to just try and overhone an edge...
Three things need to be present to do it, a fast cutting Synthetic hone, Pressure, and lots of Laps/Circles...

Some people say you can't overhone on Naturals, but I think that is more you really have to try very hard to overhone on Naturals.... I haven't tried, after I saw what it took on a Norton 220, and a Norton 1k, to make it happen, that took long enough...IIRC either Josh or David did something like 1000 laps on a Coticule and never got it to overhone but I don't think he used pressure on it....

randydance062449 said," The purpose of the pyramid method is to "provide a structured approach" to the honing of a straight razor for guys who have never sharpened anything. It is also to help prevent the most common mistake...overhoning. When the edge is so thin that it bends when it trys to cut the whisker a wire edge is developed, it is overhoned. A wire edge has no structural rigidity, kinda like aluminum foil."
Going along with what Glen said, it must be hard to do because I haven't overhoned one yet either... but I ain't tried.:)

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Y...IIRC either Josh or David did something like 1000 laps on a Coticule and never got it to overhone but I don't think he used pressure on it....

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David did this ( aka heavyduty135)

i occasionally overhone my razors on 1k, and i know glen does too, but not after. but i agree with him, overhoned razors are a rarity, underhoned are a dime a dozen.

i think that creating and then breaking a burr results in poor edge over 99% of the time. the thing is that you may have to go to even coarser hone if the break leaves large microchips. works well for knives, but they don't need to be anywhere as sharp and smooth as a razor.
the thing is that properly repairing the result of a broken off burr is just as hard as not creating a burr in the first place. i know the recipe of the barber's manual, but i don't have much experience with practicing it. i do know how much effort it takes me to get a nice edge though.

if you use light pressure on most hones you're very safe.

So lets say I buy an old razor.If I start with say a 400 grit stone and when the bevel is set then I back stroke six times and then go to an 800 stone for a while, and then back stroke it a few times and then go to a 1000 grit, and then back stroke it a few times etc. Would that prevent over honing? Seems to me it would have to. If so, then that is the method I will use from now on.

As I understand it a hollow ground blade by it very nature, is thinner about 1/4 of an inch or so from the edge than at the edge, so if you go too far it would definatily be too thin.

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Originally Posted by Jasongreat

I cant remember for sure who it was(greg, glenn?) or where it was(on srp just cant remember the thread) but he said that he has only seen one overhoned razor and that was one he had purposely tried to over hone. He dared people to take an old razor and a course stone and sit there and hone and hone and hone and see just how much work it actually takes to overhone a razor. On the otherhand he said that he has seen tons of underhoned razors and he felt that was the real thing to watch for, if I remember right, especially for beginners.

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It was a bigger problem back when the standard hone that everybody used was the Norton 4k/8k hone, and we shaved straight off of that hone. Simply stropping on chrome oxide is enough to fix most overhoned situations, but back then even chrome oxide wasn't in common use. The pyramid method was designed to minimise the risk of overhoning on the norton by alternating between two very different honing surfaces that tended to break up each other's overhoning issues, but the same thing would happen when you left the norton for a s15p/s16gs/s30p/s30gs, nakayama, coticule, or escher - except that these were either fairly rare (all), not recognized yet (nakayama, escher), or not yet on the market in a meaningful way (S30p, S30gs, nakayama).

I would like to thank all of you for your suggestions and advice. I think I understand it a little better now than I did. I certainly am not knowledgable enough to explain it to someone myself but I kind of have it in my head now. Thanks , Mack

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Originally Posted by mackie

So lets say I buy an old razor.If I start with say a 400 grit stone and when the bevel is set then I back stroke six times and then go to an 800 stone for a while, and then back stroke it a few times and then go to a 1000 grit, and then back stroke it a few times etc. Would that prevent over honing? Seems to me it would have to. If so, then that is the method I will use from now on.

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I'm a big proponent of understanding what is going on and doing what is necessary, not just a catch-it-all recipe.

For example recently I was talking to a member who had a dull edge. I suggested that he stay on the bevel setting hone until the edge is sharp, but he wanted to do pyramids just to make sure he doesn't overhone the razor.
When it was all finished he counted that he had done about 200 laps on the 1k hone and since he went to doing 4k/8k pyramids every 15 or so laps that means he did at least 500 completely useless strokes. It's a good way to learn when you don't have much experience as more practice improves the stroke, but as far as getting the razor sharp switching hones too early is rather inefficient.