Norton pyramid question

[craby]

Hello,

I've recently started to seriously attempt the resharpening of my razors using the norton honing pyramid with my 4k/8k, as opposed to doing touch ups. The razors I'm sharpening are an old 'no name' I bought through this sites classifieds, and a dovo spike point that I bought new last year. Both were shipping to me shave ready, and were very sharp.

The dovo turned out okay using the conservative method, but the older blade was a complete failure, and was a very rough shave. I checked with the seller and they didn't tape it when it was sharpened, so I tried again using Lynns recommended 15/15, 10/10 etc. I gave it 10 strokes on my crox balsa paddle, and it was actually decent enough to shave after 60 or so laps on the strop.

My questions are these:-

1. If I use the pyramid method and the results aren't satisfactory, should I start the entire pyramid again? I'm a bit worried about over honing the blade, and screwing up the bevel.

2. I originally just shaved off the 8k after doing 10 laps of crox afterwards using the conservative pyramid. That said, I just wasn't getting the razors as super sharp as they were delivered, so I bought a Naniwa 12k. I've been doing 10-15 laps on it after finishing the conservative pyramid, and then 10 on the crox.

Although the razors are capable of giving a shave, they just aren't as super sharp as when I received them.

That said, I'm curious as to whether or not I should be able to achieve a high degree of sharpness with the stones and paste I'm using? I accept it might come down to experience, but if it's a case of adding a 1 micron or .5 micron diamond into the mix instead of crox, then maybe that's the answer.

As usual, I'll default to your expert advice!

Thanks again.

craby

[niftyshaving]

Hello,

I've recently started to seriously attempt the resharpening of my razors
....snip...
That said, I just wasn't getting the razors as super sharp as they were delivered, so I bought a Naniwa 12k. I've been doing 10-15 laps on it after finishing the conservative pyramid, and then 10 on the crox.
.....
As usual, I'll default to your expert advice!

Thanks again.

craby

Not an expert in this bunch but
here are some thoughts.

If you have a shave ready sharp razor all you
should need to do to touch it up at first is the 12K Naniwa
you have (or another finisher).

Going all the way back to the top of the pyramid should be
an uncommon trip.

What is your CrOx on?

I ask about the CrOx because I believe CrOx is valuable
when sharpening as are other abrasive strops when used
in the final steps of sharpening.

They are much less valuable almost destructive in the daily
stropping routine where clean linen canvas and clean leather
rule at the daily task of maintaining a razor edge.

Since you have a Naniwa 12k I will skip my balsa hone biased
opinionated praise and rant that is fueled in part by my lack of
a Naniwa 12k.

Now as you visit and meditate on your Naniwa 12k please
tell me if it is called a 12K because one should kneel down and hone
on it twelve times a year?

[AFDavis11]

Its early, which leaves me with the potential to get a little confused. As far as I can tell the pyramid method worked well for you but it didn't get the blade quite as sharp as you wanted in one case and didn't work well in another.

First, you have all the best equipment to produce a fantastic edge. The equipment you are using is orders of magnatude above what I typically use.

Second, even after any pyramiding I do I always do a finishing process. This process has me doing up to 100 passes, if needed, on the highest grit I have. Most razors shave just fine after a pyramid though. On average I might do 20 extra passes, but sometimes more.

I don't think you need to worry about overhoning, but you do need to consider honing too much. There is an Aggressive Pyramid you could use after that. Its also additive. Two Conservative Pyramids equals double the honing of one. If the razors were already sharp, then you probably did too much honing. And this only means that you did more honing than was needed. Overhoning has nothing to do with the number of passes you do. Honing too much on the other hand, has you replicating a good edge, over and over again, for no reason. It only removes a little too much metal, which is something you want to avoid. It does not hurt the razor. It only reduces edge life, from like 200 years down to 180. So not a big worry. Just making a point.

If, as I'm reading this, the razors were already sharp, then a Conservative Pyramid was way too much. But this might not really be an overhoning or underhoning issue, but more of a "Breaking the Finish" issue. The razors were likely well polished and well finished when they shaved well. The second you apply a 4K pass, even one, never mind an entire pyramid, you break whatever finish existed and begin a new. So, they won't feel the same. They may be sharp, but not the same.

If these were old razors, you might do several Conservative Pyramids to get the razor sharp.

When it comes to Pyramids the key leverage you are enjoying with the system is that you are always applying just enough of a finish to the edge that you will recognize when you are done. One big key to honing is knowing when you are done. But, "just enough finish" doesn't mean you'll be happy with the edge or that it will replicate an original edge. This is usually because you need more practice on honing with the pyramid system.

After all that I honestly do not think the answer to your question is really going to help you with your problem though. Perhaps you want to ask another question, say about one of the razors in particular?

[Lynn]

If you're working on razors that have been previously honed, then I would stick with the 12K and then the paste and on to the strop. That actually is more of a refresh. If you want to do a pyramid on these I would start no higher than a 5 and in most cases would probably try a 3-3, 1-3 and 1-5 first.

With a razor in decent shape but not honed starting at 15 is good usually. Depending on the results, you should not have to go all the way back to the 15. Going from a 5 or a 3 at this point would be recommended until you get the edge where you want it and then on to the finishing stone and pastes. You can actually try going right to the pastes from here also and see how it works for you.

Have fun,

Lynn

[craby]

Thanks very much for your responses.

You sharpened the Dovo spike point for me Lynn, and your comments about refreshing make a lot of sense to me now.

It's certainly been the case that until I started honing, the pieces didn't start to click together i.e. reading the forums is a big help, but it really puts it into perspective. I understand now about refreshing as opposed to a complete pyramid. I'll pull out the 12k and the paste and give it a bit more of a go. No doubt a bit more practice with the technique, but also finding the sweet spot for each individual razor and my own preference, will do the trick.

When I look at the bevel in the microscope, the edge is intact, the honing marks are consistent, and the bevel itself is very shiny and polished. As you say, it's more than likely my finishing as opposed to the pyramid itself, not to mention that I should have just gone for a refresh instead of the whole hog.

Thanks very much. Your advice has been a great help.

regards,

craby

[DoughBoy68]

I have a couple of razors that I've had a bit of a problem with, one in particular. It felt very sharp, was sticky to the thumb, sliced hair from my arms or legs like a hot knife through butter but just won't shave for sh**. On another one I set the bevel, ran it through the Pyramid on a Norton 4k/8k starting at 25 and it is sharp but not sharp enough. I have wondered for some time now if you could run one through more than one Pyramid. A few things Lynn said hit the nail on the head about the Pyramid. Also what AFDavis11 said about over honing and honing too much was a little confusing at first, then it clicked. When I starting reading these post I was a bit confused, then after some thought it all came together. Now it's time to go to work. Thanks a million guys, you just answered several questions for me.

[Soilarch]

AFDavis touched on it...and I'm NOT on of the "experts" you mentioned...
but, if I understand it correctly, one of benefits to the pyramid system is it makes an "overhoned" edge nearly impossible. I don't know if that is why he told you not to worry about having an overhoned edge.

I've just started playing with the pyramids and I've used the search button a lot because I had similar results to yours. Seems it is common to do a pyramid (conservative or aggressive) try a shave, then polish on your highest grit some more if needed, try a shave, polish some more, try a shave..etc.

Also, from one newb to the other...get that CrOx on a paddle strop or balsa strop. I LOVE CrOx but it will round/dull your edge insanely quick if you don't do it right. I have a very hard time NOT ruining an edge on a pasted hanging strop. Just recently discovered this little culprit. I'm having much much better luck using it on a hard flat strop. You can buy enough balsa to make a half dozen balsa strops at Hobby Lobby for <$5. It's one of the best $5 I've spent on SR so far.

[SiRed8]

No expert on honing but I can relate and I had to employ 15/15, 10/10 and so forth several times. I was so concerned with overhoning that I was essentially underhoning my razors. I didn't have a problem with some but with others I did and after talking to the members specifically gugi and Robin, they told me not to worry and just make sure I can shave off of the 1k side.

The general guideline from Lynn DVD is if it's new to excellent condition:
3/3 on the 4/8K Norton
1/3
1/3-5 strokes on the 8k ( I do 5 )

For Stainless Steel ( it's not as hard as people make them out to be-again n00b here I'm going off based on memory ):
3/3 on Norton 4/8k
1/5
1/7

Since I don't have a 10k+ finisher the 8k polisher will suffice for time being.

With regards to checking the edges:
if it cuts some hair but pulls it's not sharp

if it glides over the hair and doesn't remove it it's overhoned

a perfect edge can be summarized in the following:

no micro chipping in edge
straight nice refined edge
very small dark striation

If you have an overhoned razor employ these to remove bur:
3/3 on 4/8k Norton or
1/3 or
1/5