Correct use of a Thuringian/Escher

So I think I have finally gotten the use of a Thury down pat with water or dry.

My question is, if I use it with slurry how "low" of a "grit" can one achieve? Is it like a coticule where it will go very "low", like to "1k"? Will it only go "4k"? "8k"?

Please notice the use of snear quotes please. I know that naturals are all different and cannot be rated. I am just asking if I use a slurry where can I aim to fit it in to my rotation?

Background info: I am asking because I am deciding about splurging for a biggish Thury (8x2) or hunting down a vintage one (7x1.5). If it ends up as one of the "NOS" Mueller ones I know it would most likely be coarser than a typical Escher. I am okay with this if with a slurry I could go down in "grit size" because I have a 5x1 Thury already that gives amazing finishes but is too small to be useful for anything more than finishing.

I mostly just want to know what "sharpening grit range" I can expect from a Thuringian type hone.

How high is up ? :p
I don't think the grit really changes with a slurry so much as it allows the stone to cut faster... but I may be wrong. You can likely use any finisher a la "unicot method" & the biggest variable will be time taken. You will likely have your own answer when you try.
Anyhoo experimentation is one of the joys of "naturals" :)

I believe your use of the term 'going down in grit size' by using slurry is incorrect and misleading. By raising a slurry you are not changing the physical characteristics of the hone or the grit size of the home but are exposing more grit. As an analogy think og the grit as ball bearings. Using the hone dry picture sliding your hand over a tray full of the ball bearings packed tightly only one layer thick. You hand is only touching the tops of the bearings. Now picture a large deep box filled with bearings. Running your hand over the with some pressure is a whole different experience.

More freely moving grits equals faster cutting. The scratches will not be much different in depth. Try dropping Hi_Bud_GL a PM asking him to comment on this thread. He Loves Eschers and can give some good input.

Thanks guys I realise that (with the possible exception of Jnats) grit is fixed. Hence the "" around "grit". What I mean to say is if I use a thick (milky) slurry with a Thuringian hone, how low in the process could I go? As in when could I REASONABLY start using the Thury? After 1k? after 4k? after 8k?

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Originally Posted by khaos

Thanks guys I realise that (with the possible exception of Jnats) grit is fixed. Hence the "" around "grit". What I mean to say is if I use a thick (milky) slurry with a Thuringian hone, how low in the process could I go? As in when could I REASONABLY start using the Thury? After 1k? after 4k? after 8k?

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It al depends on your definition of reasonable.

For example, for my barber Kawaguchi-sensei, it is entirely reasonable to use heavy slurry on a Nakayama Maruka to take out a huge chip. I did it. It took about 2 hours, but it did, in fact, work. TO me, it took too long to be "reasonable".

So, depending on your patience, heavy slurry on a Thuringian would probably work similarly--you could use it to set a bevel, repair chips, and then polish with it.

So your question then, comes to: How patient am I?

Ain't no one can answer that question but you.

Ah, that's better. As with the coticules w/ slurry it is possible to use slurry on the Escher and perform the complete honing on the Escher alone and just slowly diluting the slurry as you go. Don't let Sham know your doing that though. Eschers are highly prised hones and very expensive. To completely hone your razor on one is considered a waste of the hone when lesser priced hones can perform the same function. Using the Escher after the 8k is common and slurry is not required. Slurry produces a slightly rounded edge. It takes a lot of practice and fussing around to develop the rate to dilute the slurry and to develop the feel to know when to dilute. In the long run you will find it cheaper and faster to use tools better suited for the task at hand. If you really want to play with slurry I would get a BBW/Coticule combo or a C12k tp play with. The C12k can be had for s song compared to the price of Eschers. Check w/ Holli,he may have a C12k for sale. If not Woodcraft sells them anc calls them Natural Hones. Here's a link: Natural Polishing Water Stone - Woodcraft.com You may need to cut a piece off for a rubbing stone or search the classified section for one.

+1 Joed, I have 4 Escher's, and have never raised a slurry. I have instructions with one of them, and it say's to use wet, and a "slime should develop on it. That's not a hone I'd generally use a slurry on. The only hone I ever raise a slurry on, is a Coti. A lot of guys are under the impression that slurries lower the grit range, which they don't. It just makes the hone work faster...If you need a lower grit, use a lower grit hone...That's what I was told by a very senior member when I started...

When I think "Eshcer" or Thuringian, I'm thinking "Finishing" so I normally don't have to do many lapps at that point, Really, maybe 10-15 tops, then test shave, so a slurry isn't needed IMHO.

Yeah. I have a slurry stone with my finishing escher that I have never used. I was just looking at a "NOS" Mueller Thuringen which is a LOT cheaper, its a bigger stone, and apparently it really is a little lower in grit. It'll probably be $80 for a 8x2 stone.

I know it is not "Escher quality" but I am not looking for a FINAL polisher, I'm looking for the pre-final polisher, if that makes sense (like what would normally be a 8k or 10k). I see where the "don't waste stone" argument comes from BUT... How many coticules that have been used with slurry have disappeared? And how long has JimR's Barber had that Jnat that he keeps raising heavy slurry on- and at $80-$100 shipped, 8x2 is bigger than most coticules and most Jnats in that price range.

I'm not trying to start a fight, just responding/provoking thought. I have a 5k nani super, and currently I am going from that to a Jnat with slurry, so I was thinking why not go to a Thury with slurry (because I feel when I raise a slurry on the Jnat I have to wait quite a few laps for it to break down, and the Thury as has been mentioned and duly noted, the grit doesn't get rougher/finer based on slurry)

I've messed with this a bit. My labeled Eschers tell you to take the 'rubber' (slurry stone) and create a lather. I've done this with all of the ones I've used and then continued with the dilute method. I've done this with razors that already had the bevel set and gotten good results.

I took the fastest cutting Escher I have and tried the bevel setting as with Bart's coticule method. Heavy slurry and so forth. I'm not saying it can't be done. Maybe it can but someone with more patience than I've got is going to have to be the one to do it. :)

In general I use an Escher with water only after I've honed a razor to an 8k level or after I've finished on a coticule and just want a bit extra. Not that my way is the 'right' way and certainly not the only way.... just what I've done thus far.

Bart is a great example of what can be done if we just experiment. He tried various methods of sharpening with the coticule and the bbw and came up with some really effective methods.

Lynn is also always trying different stones and other shrapening vehicles and he too has come up with some innovative ways to get a razor sharp and sharper yet. So to me we should approach any of these stones with an open mind and try new ways if we can think of them. It will either work for us or it won't but it is worth a try.

Below is an instruction label on a vintage Y/G Escher. I've always been a believer in following the instructions first and learning the 'right' way before I choose to give it a try my way. :)

Hmmm. So if I were to set teh bevel on my Nani 1k, sharpen on teh 3k and 5k, then IN THEORY could go to a big 8x2 Thury with slurry? And finish on my vintage, nice 5x1 Thury without slurry?

In terms of time obviously I don't expect it to be as fast as going 1k->3k->5k->8k->finisher, but how many laps (obviously, a range, given uniqueness) did you find yourself doing on the thury with slurry, given a good bevel setting? 100? 200? 500?

Thanks!

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Originally Posted by khaos

Hmmm. So if I were to set teh bevel on my Nani 1k, sharpen on teh 3k and 5k, then IN THEORY could go to a big 8x2 Thury with slurry? And finish on my vintage, nice 5x1 Thury without slurry?

In terms of time obviously I don't expect it to be as fast as going 1k->3k->5k->8k->finisher, but how many laps (obviously, a range, given uniqueness) did you find yourself doing on the thury with slurry, given a good bevel setting? 100? 200? 500?

Thanks!

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Nowhere near that. I might do 10 with slurry and try a TPT or popping hair and then do 10 more with slurry and dilute and do a few laps until I was down to water only. I would say play around with it. That is what I have done. I wish I had written a lot of this down but I just haven't had the discipline to do that.

Many times I haven't used the slurry .... sometimes I do and follow with water only. Sometimes I just use water. Usually with finishing on an Escher with water only I might do 30 round trips and then give it a try. If I felt I needed more I would do more. Sometimes I have and other times I haven't. I have done 100 an a dark blue once just for the heck of it but ordinarily I wouldn't do that many. On that occasion the razor got super sharp BTW. :)

It depends on the razor and the hones leading up to the Escher. I don't have a conclusive formula of x amount of laps with slurry and x amount with water as if it was a pyramid. It is hone and test and maybe hone some more and then maybe go shave. A lot of it is intuition. That is my experience at this stage of my game. :) YMMV.

Mueller Thuringians are approx. same grit as a good coticule or slightly finer. The vintage ones are similar to Eschers.

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Originally Posted by zib

A lot of guys are under the impression that slurries lower the grit range, which they don't. It just makes the hone work faster.

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I don't think all that many people actually think that slurry lowers the grit range. Mostly because it makes no sense that it possibly could do such a thing. It does, however have a similar effect. ie. It causes the hone to remove steel more quickly and results in a less keen edge.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by zib

..If you need a lower grit, use a lower grit hone...That's what I was told by a very senior member when I started....

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While I do agree that one should use the right tool for a given job, I still think that this quote is slightly misconceived. Or maybe I should say that it holds true more for synthetics (Where grit ratings rule supreme), than it does for naturals (Where grit ratings have less meaning).
What I am trying to say is that you don't NEED a lower grit hone. The use of a lower grit hone is not the objective, it is the tool. The objective is to remove more steel, and that can be acheived by the use of several tools. One of these tools is the use of a lower grit hone. Others are the use of slurry or pressure or even all three!

Edit: Upon reading, I realise the above may sound offensive or condacending. It was not intended as such. Your quoted text just gave me the ideal way to try and put my point across.

Depending on my next paycheck and the success of some razors I want to list soon I think I'll get a Mueller thuringen- the confirmation from Kees that it is slightly lower in grit, and the confirmation of theory from Rosco and Jimmy are my reasoning.

Yes, I know a few of you have said outright no, but as long as there are some yeses and maybes I think I would like to try this if finances permit.

Yes using a slurry on a precious Thury seems like a waste but really- how many coticules or jnats have been "slurried" through?

Yes it may be slow but I'm eager to try- it shouldn't be any slower than my swaty, Nakayama or current Thuringian so...

The final thing I guess is I think I have budding HAD, and I think I'm at the point where I want to experiment and "play" with the stones, rather than just use them as a means to an end.

Thanks for all your advice guys!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rosco

I don't think all that many people actually think that slurry lowers the grit range. Mostly because it makes no sense that it possibly could do such a thing. It does, however have a similar effect. ie. It causes the hone to remove steel more quickly and results in a less keen edge.



While I do agree that one should use the right tool for a given job, I still think that this quote is slightly misconceived. Or maybe I should say that it holds true more for synthetics (Where grit ratings rule supreme), than it does for naturals (Where grit ratings have less meaning).
What I am trying to say is that you don't NEED a lower grit hone. The use of a lower grit hone is not the objective, it is the tool. The objective is to remove more steel, and that can be acheived by the use of several tools. One of these tools is the use of a lower grit hone. Others are the use of slurry or pressure or even all three!

Edit: Upon reading, I realise the above may sound offensive or condacending. It was not intended as such. Your quoted text just gave me the ideal way to try and put my point across.

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Karl, here is an old review by forum member Russel Baldridge. He used to contribute quite a bit in the honing section and to the forum in general at one time. A mentor before there were badges but alas he is no longer participating.

Thanks Jimmy that is a great help.

Why not get a naniwa 8000 instead?

the small thuringians are rather good for touch ups too, but i probably wouldn't want to go to them after naniwa 5000. In fact most of the time I use naniwa 12000 too before the thuringians, just because it's fast and consistent.

This is a good question. For a few reasons: they'll end up being roughly the same price (the nani will be a little more but not much), I like the idea of naturals more than synthetics, and I kind of want a "toy" more than a "tool". I want both, but finances dictate that I can probably only have one, and thats a maybe too lol.