Developing my Honing Technique

So yesterday I decided the Henckel 5/8 hollow ground needed a little bit of sharpening, so I brought out the Norton 4/8K and got to it. Using the "X Pattern," I pushed the razor along the 4K side of the stone, using about four to five laps before I'd rotate to the other side.

The fleshy part of my thumb is all I usually require to test an edge, and I was kind of frustrated to find that after a certain number of passes I could tell that there was definite progress, but after a couple more, that the same sensation had disappeared. It was as thought I was erasing what work I had done.

After a while I decided I'd just flip to the 8K side and "mirror" the edge's teeth a bit. I did the same length-wise X pattern and touched the blade yet again. It felt as though whatever edge I had had was lost.

So then I tried a new approach, and, using about 1/3 to 1/2 of the 8K side, I began rapidly moving the blade both forwards and backwards at the appropriate angle, not unlike one would use a washing board. After alternating to the other side, I found that I had restored some of the edge, but I wasn't overly confident about how the razor would perform during a shave. Nevertheless, I stropped it on my thick, heavy leather belt (which I've concluded is just as good as any "proper" strop), and then set it aside, it being a little too late for a shave.

So this morning I went in to the bathroom and showered, and then stropped the same razor for about 20 laps on the belt again. I wasn't expecting much, but that thing just chopped my three to four days of growth down like nothing! I was done in no time flat, the cross-grain pass doing a fantastic job.

When I thumbed the edge yet again, it still didn't even feel that sharp -- but you can't really argue with results, right?

Can any of you folks explain this phenomenon? And also, what do you think of the "wash board" honing technique? Not all that different from the circular method some use, wouldn't you say? :)

This is interesting, and I believe very telling. I'm not really the one who should comment but in my opinion here is what happened. You seemed to have an edge that needed touching up and for some reason took it to the 4,000, tearing the edge something fierce. Then you back honed and forward honed breaking the burr you created (from overhoning) and honed it down, creating a nice edge. Many blades are over honed and your version of sharp wasn't really what you needed to get a good shave in the first place. You did some aggressive stropping which I think is critical to a good shave. I would guess a few more regular passes on the 8K would be good but I would never recommend messing with a good shaving edge. The great thing about your technique, and perhaps the only good thing about it, is that you can't easily lift off and disturb the blade edge if your just moving it back and forth on the hone. Without flipping you sort of simplified the process of holding the same angles. I think that traveling the same distance and the same angle and the same pressure are the keys to a good honing action and your back and forth motion makes all three of those easier. Atleast for one side at a time. But the blade should be better, I would think, with a few more passes without any backhoning motion. I would typically do this on a high grit barber hone. Again though if its shaving great I would let it ride for a while. I think lots of guys spend too much time honing, and not enough time stropping, to understand that overly sharp sucks for shaving.

Congrats! I'll try your method myself and see what I come up with. I have been experimenting lately with some backhoning and it does accomplish some very interesting things if done at the right time with the right grit.

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Originally Posted by Blade Wielder

The fleshy part of my thumb is all I usually require to test an edge, and I was kind of frustrated to find that after a certain number of passes I could tell that there was definite progress, but after a couple more, that the same sensation had disappeared. It was as thought I was erasing what work I had done.

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This is precisely what I experience. I've been working some nicks out of a Way Brothers Special (anyone?) with the Little Devil, which cut pretty quickly and I'll get a great pull with the thumb test which couldn't cut a hair if it tried. The REAL shaving sharp edge is extremely delicate and not as easily detected. I find the Norton 8000 can smoot away that fragile edge completely in 5 passes if I'm not careful. Lynn's wisdom that the final test is a shave, can hardly be disputed.

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Originally Posted by Blade Wielder

Can any of you folks explain this phenomenon? And also, what do you think of the "wash board" honing technique? Not all that different from the circular method some use, wouldn't you say? :)

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I'll bet that edge is not permanent, but that all it'll need is the right touch up in order to be. The circular honing, which I've been using to cut faster is and aggresive technique for changing the edge. Washboarding would be little different, except that you're leaving the scratches in the right direction. I suspect it should just cut down on the effort into the pyramid which should come next. It's important to consider how you're going to wear down the thick wedge of the bevel, but once that is done it's time to ceate the edge.

I think AF is correct on all counts save one: although less on the hone and more attention on the strop is also what I'm learning, but there is NO SUCH THING AS TOO SHARP! Sharper only means less effort and for me that translates into a more comfortable and safer shave. I've just ordered some .25 paste from Ray to prove myself wrong. :eek:

So in your opinion, AFDavis, I shouldn't have taken the edge to the 4K? What would you have done? Some work on the 8K and then some stropping, or just the latter?

Either way, I kind of reluctant to take this razor to either side of the hone any time soon, for fear of destroying what I've got now. I'm just going to strop it until it doesn't work as well as it did today. And boy, as I rub my hand across my face right now, it sure did a good great job. This is definitely one of my best shaves.

And xman, you definitely reminded me of something when you said that the really sharp edges are the ones you can't immediately identify with your thumb. When Lynn sent me my WWII-era Worcester, Mass, razor, I took it out of the box and thumbed at the well-oiled edge a little bit. "That doesn't feel sharp!" I thought. But when I shaved with it, I discovered that I was wrong -- it was very sharp.

It actually kind of sucks that the best edges can't be easily detected -- you've got to like... become one with the razor, man!

Oh, and did I coin a new Straight Razor term with the "Washboarding" thing? That'd be cool. :D

No, I'm sorry I didn't mean you shouldn't have taken to the 4,000, what I meant was that for some reason you felt like it needed to go to the 4,000. I can't second guess your decision from here and shouldn't even try. When you say the razor "needed a little bit of sharpening" to me that means to go to something much less aggressive for fear of tearing up the bevel. What I read was that it needed a touch up, and that might not have been the case. If it was the case I would have just gone to a pasted strop or a barber hone myself first then checked the results and gone to the 4,000 later. I think your results indicate why.

X, its subjective, but I am able to get a razor too sharp, usually as an overhoned edge. More lately as really, really sharp and I find that it starts acting like a Feather. Cuts, nicks and tears skin too easily. The ever so slightest microscopic side movement and it cuts skin up. I find that I can get a great shaver without the risks of nicks with an easier blade. No bouncing, no getting caught on every little facial issue. Like a DE blade thats been shaved on once. The difference between what I like and too sharp for me is only 2 strokes on a high grit hone. I do have slightly pocketed skin though too. I don't want to alarm anyone but with a blade honed back to my preference I can shave without paying attention. Thats pleasant to me. I know that sounds weird but its the way I like it. I don't even use .5 paste anymore. You can have all the .25 that they make. With hones alone you can make a killer sharp blade.

I think you'll get credit for washboard honing here soon. LOL

I'm curious how your razor reacts/draws on the strop. I feel I can read an edge best on the strop now. I'm saving my thumbs for sucking on. LOL

As a newbie, I have very little to add to this from personal experience.
But I do have a little tidbit that an old barber passed on to me about 10-12 years ago.
Even then he had switched to a disposible blade razor for trimming up the back of the neck and around the ears. When I commented on the obvious sharpness of the blade he told me that he didn't use the blade right out of the dispenser.

He then showed me a cake of yellow soap with numerous slashes(12-18?) across the top, and told me that running the blade edge through the soap "conditioned" the blade in such a way that it cut way down on nicks.

I didn't really ponder the matter at the time, just kind of thought "that's interesting", and didn't pursue the matter. Today I'd have a bunch of questions for him as to how/why it works, how many slashes per blade, what brand of soap etc.

Now the question is; What the heck would the soap be able to do to a steel blade that would cause such an effect? The only thing I can imagine is a slight dulling of an over sharp blade like AFDavis11 mentions causing nicks.

Don in Ohio

Yes, realistically, it probably only needed a few passes on the 8K side of the hone, but I haven't done that many "touch ups" on razors, and have been aggressively honing some of my duller ones on the 4K, so I guess I was just doing what I was used to. Next time I'll see what the 8K side'll do for the edge.

I don't have any of those razor pastes yet, but they sound like they're pretty handy. I think I'll head on over to ClassicShaving right now and have a closer look. I think my next purchase is going to be a nicer brush, though. Ah, what the hell -- maybe I'll make it a double order. [/moneybags]

:)

I like to save on shipping costs and buy everything I want for the next couple of months at once and tell the girlfriend "Its on sale" LOL

Yea, a slight dulling can be a good thing. Thats what the Feather blade needs a good soap slashing!

There is a huge window where you run your razor down your cheek and it shaves or shaves, or just plain shaves. The real issue becomes how your face feels after all three. The whiskers always return anyway.

Blade, I've had a few razors shaving close and had Randy tell me to attack it with lots of 4k strokes. Its still a science I'm not clear on. But I update all my blades after about 10 shaves with 6 strokes on a barber hone. I would do the same for yours after breaking the burr with a backhone stroke. Works wonders and makes for a really easy, smooth shave. For me anyway.

Washboard honing eh? Actually I've been doing that forever just I call it back and forth honing but I like your term better. I usually do the typical honing and towards the end will do several washboard honing strokes.

I think when people say a blade is too sharp the problem is there is some malfunction with the cutting edge, maybe a burr or just a rough edge which is causing discomfort. Personally I don't think there is any such thing as too sharp. As they say sharp is sharp. Of course if you develop a wire edge thats another thing but I find when that edge starts to deteriorate I can immediately tell because the comfort factor changes.

Usually if you don't let it get too bad the 8K is all you need afterall your not redoing the edge just tweaking it back to shape.

You may be right. There is definitely overhoned though. Yesterday I took one of my blades into the really sharp area. It was nice having something that sharp but I think its something I would need time to get used to. And it nicked me pretty good right on a facial protrusion. Acted just like that dang Feather, but it is nice having so much "cutting ability" so easily available. I read about guys getting their razors honed and then not liking the shave because its suddenly too sharp. It takes an adjustment to using a super sharp blade. For my face (again its a little pocketed) I may prefer a smoother shaver over super sharp. I believe they require a lighter touch and more control. But I'll keep playing with it.

I think that when we talk about overhoned we really mean wire edge because that is what usually happens when you overhone. I find that when a razor is super sharp it just shaves like a hot knife through butter. As it dulls you can feel it cutting more and more then it starts to pull. I think if you want a razor that will cut properly yet wont nick imperfections in your face thats unrealistic.

Like everythink else it takes technique and a light touch to properly maneuver the razor over your face. Personally I've found a dull razor to be more likely to nick me because I have to use a heavier hand and thats where the problems start.

So we come back to the question of what is a overhoned razor. To me you can take sharpness to its final degree and beyond that its just a damaged edge, not sharp anymore IMHO.