Bevel setting problem

Hi all,

Trying to set a bevel on the recently restored razor. I'm using light pressure, 2 hands and a slight x pattern as the stone is pretty much exactly the same width as the blade.

The problem I'm having is with the bevel I'm getting. On one side, its wide in the middle, and tapers out to the ends - almost nil bevel at the toe. On the other side, exactly the opposite. Very wide at the ends, and narrow in the middle.

Whats likely to be causing this, and how do I fix it? Should I keep at it until it sorts itself out? Could the blade be bent in some way that I cannot see with the naked eye? The blade did have a moderate smile initialy, and I used the breadboard stroke to straighten it up before attempting the bevel.

Thanks in advance,
joel.

Wow! That is a puzzle. The simple answer is that it was like this all along. Since you breadknifed it, that may not be the issue.

You would know better than to put your finger in different spots while you hone right?

I'm at a loss, but when applying finger pressure I'd be a little surprised that anyone could apply exactly the same pressure, in exactly coincident spots on both sides of a blade, for both stroke directions.

Your problem seems little intense though.

I guess I would just apply corrective pressure, even assymetrically.

Sounds like the spine is un even.

Sounds like a warp in the blade. Narrow hones are the way to go. There are strokes that will sort out the convex side, but the concave would require the narrow hones.
If you don't have them, why not send it out to become a honemiesters problem? It shouldn't be a huge headache for the pro's.

I agree with the first half of Ben's answer. :) Just kidding. Yea, send it out. I bet we could get someone to hone it for you.

use permanent marker on the bevel to see where the stone touches the blade, then try different strokes to see which one will allow the blade to go over the stone full length. The whole process of setting the bevel will be a pain i the butt, so as advised above it might be better to send it out for honing.

Thanks guys,

Looks like yet another complication on the path. But such complications are part of the fun and a great way to learn :) . I think I'll make the attempt to get it shave ready myself. Probably lap the side of my waterstone and try this rolling-X stroke for a while. If that fails, I'll send it out to an expert to get it honed.

P.S. I tried the marker test, and a single pass seems to remove it all. There is a full length bevel along both sides after a bit more work. Very narrow in places, but definitely there.

Nothing wrong with a bit of stubborn perseverance, but if you don't have the right hones it may lead to frustration!
The rolling X will only work on one side if i'm picturing things right.
Good luck though!

If the marker was removed with a normal x stroke that would be the stroke to use. If it takes a rolling x than that would be what you want. Sometimes a bevel will vary in width from heel to point and from one side to the other. The important thing is that there is a bevel.

Try circles as Lynn is doing in this video here followed by x strokes. It is possible that doing more on one side than the other will correct the uneven results you're getting. That is a judgment call. This trusty 1961 barber manual excerpt here in the SRP Wiki help files is a good read and may give you something to go with on honing in general.

What you are describing is something I have seen a lot more of over the years than I would have liked to. More times than not a razor is not warped, but really thrown off by the previous poor honing or grinding. I have seen as many as 6 or 7 bevels on razors and spine wear as uneven as a crooked stick and to beat the band, not the same on both sides.

The alternatives:

Circles-You can do a ton of circles on both sides of the razor starting at a 220 grit and remove enough steel from both the spine and edge so that the razor actually lays flat on the stone and then you can set a bevel. If the razor still doesn't lay flat, then it may have some warp in it. A lot of times a 45 degree angle with the circles can be very helpful. The 45 degree angle works very well if there is a small amount of warp in the blade or with wedges and smileys too. I also find that firm pressure helps with the metal removal here. (An example of the circles is on the home page from the NC Gathering)

Tape the spine-Depending on the amount of time you want to spend evening out your bevel, you can choose between one or two layers of tape. I really don't recommend any more than two. You can then do your circles until your edge is flat all the way across. You can use the 45 degree angle here successfully too.

A million X strokes firm either with or with out the tape until you reach the results described above.

Once you get the edge and spine cleaned up, then you can go to a 1K stone and actually set your bevel and move up the rest of your honing progression using your favorite method.

Be patient as these kinds of razors take a ton of time and fiddling around with to get to shavable.

There are probably a couple other alternatives, but the ones above work the best and the quickest for me.

Good luck,

Lynn

Maybe a pic of the razor would help us put our advice in context, can you post one?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ben.mid

If you don't have them, why not send it out to become a honemiesters problem? It shouldn't be a huge headache for the pro's.

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That's a good one. I may have a suggestion who to send it to (honemeisters, here's your opportunity to put in your offers and as long as they are generous enough I may neglect to mention your name :))


I think the razor is just warped since it's the simplest explanation for the symptom of the wide an narrow bevels at one side matching with narrow and wide on the other. It seems to me that if somebody can reproduce this by altering the spine with creative honing they've got serious talent, those 7-bevel rookies that Lynn mentions got long way to go... :roflmao

+1 to Lynn, if you REALLY want to correct the uneven bevel, it's gonna take a LONG time and a lot of work.

I had a wedge that wouldn't lay right on the hones...now that I think I've got it pretty darn close, I'm just gonna hone it up and see how it turns out...I seriously got tired of running the darn thing over REAL coarse sandpaper (like I said, it needed a LOT of work.)

Like Lynn said, if I had stuck with a 220 hone, it would have taken probably a million strokes :p

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lynn

What you are describing is something I have seen a lot more of over the years than I would have liked to. More times than not a razor is not warped, but really thrown off by the previous poor honing or grinding. I have seen as many as 6 or 7 bevels on razors and spine wear as uneven as a crooked stick and to beat the band, not the same on both sides.

The alternatives:

Circles-You can do a ton of circles on both sides of the razor starting at a 220 grit and remove enough steel from both the spine and edge so that the razor actually lays flat on the stone and then you can set a bevel. If the razor still doesn't lay flat, then it may have some warp in it. A lot of times a 45 degree angle with the circles can be very helpful. The 45 degree angle works very well if there is a small amount of warp in the blade or with wedges and smileys too. I also find that firm pressure helps with the metal removal here. (An example of the circles is on the home page from the NC Gathering)

Tape the spine-Depending on the amount of time you want to spend evening out your bevel, you can choose between one or two layers of tape. I really don't recommend any more than two. You can then do your circles until your edge is flat all the way across. You can use the 45 degree angle here successfully too.

A million X strokes firm either with or with out the tape until you reach the results described above.

Once you get the edge and spine cleaned up, then you can go to a 1K stone and actually set your bevel and move up the rest of your honing progression using your favorite method.

Be patient as these kinds of razors take a ton of time and fiddling around with to get to shavable.

There are probably a couple other alternatives, but the ones above work the best and the quickest for me.

Good luck,

Lynn

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Just added this to the SRP Wiki under the "Lynn Abrams on Honing" tutorial. A very valuable addition of the advanced practitioner IMO. :)