Shaving edge variation

I'm having a little difficulty getting a consistantly fine edge when sharpening.

There isn't a lot of difference but I've noticed that if I'm cutting hair right off with the front 1/3 of the blade, the rear 1/3 will cut -most- of the way through but leave the end hanging by a remaining wisp of hair.

I've seen this on 3 different razors, I think that I can even detect the difference when trying the thumb test.

So the question is, Is this common and what causes it? Most likely some flaw in my sharpening/stropping I'm sure, but if anyone has any suggestions, I'd like to hear them!

Don in Ohio

Don,

Could you describe what you mean a little differently? Blades don't have a front and a rear. Are you referring to the tip and heal as shaving differently? Thanx

I need to know to form a reply...

And what does this mean?

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Originally Posted by DonOhio39

but leave the end hanging by a remaining wisp of hair.

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If I understand you correctly, and I'm not sure that I do, I think the tip is sharper than the heal. If thats the case I would suggest your going to an x pattern prematurely in your honing. Are you just an x pattern honer? And again if thats the case I would recommend continuing to hone as you do now (for consistency sake) and place a finger on the heal of the spine while honing and do some pyramids (just a few) with your finger on the heal of the razor applying gentle pressure.

The other alternative is to angle the blade at about 45 degrees and run it down the hone in a few pyramids (just a few) and get the heal or base of the blade. I might use my finger with this method too. This is probably the preferred method if you have practice using both methods.

Is this common? Not nearly as common as I should think it would be with x pattern honing but it does happen. Perhaps your applying pressure somehow to the blade tip when honing? I don't know. Or perhaps you apply too much pressure on the shank or handle when honing, thats a possibility too, even though its the tip that is sharp.

If this isn't what you meant...LOL, sorry!

Typically when you see this, it is a pressure thing. I try to hone at a 90 degree angle using the X pattern from heel to toe. The key is definitely keeping the blade perfectly flat during the stroke with virtually no pressure. Any pressure along the way will alter the edge. Lynn

You are right Front=tip and rear =heel. I'm just too new to have the terminology down pat.
"leaving it hanging by a wisp" The blade cuts the hair but it seems like there is enough resistance to the cut that the end of it rolls/flips/whatever off the edge before the hair is completely severed. If you take a pocket knife and cut long thin branches off a tree(like a willow tree) the branch sometimes bends at the cut and you can end up with it still hanging on the stub by the bark. It's the same thing, just on a different scale.

I'll try to work on my technique, still lots to learn!

Thanks

Don in Ohio

I have the same issue Don,
With me it was just the opposite however. My heel was so perfectly sharp it was amazing, but the belly and tip varied from sharp to painfully dull :o

Lynn is right on the money (as usual) it's a pressure/angle thing during the honing. I have a tendency to allow the scales to dip down at the end of the stroke so the heel allways had a constant pressure and was allways flat on the hone at the start...

When sharpening anything there are two variable that cause problems for people: 1)angle of approach and 2)downward pressure
The straight makes the angle of approach easy for us because we lay the razor flat. However, keeping the razor flat through the stroke can be a problem.. as Lynn says, perfectly flat is key!

Try honing your razor in short strokes, so that no more than 1/2 the blade over-hangs the hone at the end of the stroke. Yes, this makes for a tiny stroke, but keeping half the blade on the hone will help you get a feel for keeping the blade flat and when you get a little more steady you can increase the length of the stroke to speed up the honing process...

I see. Thanx for the clarification. Lynn has provided you with the cause, which was along my line of thinking as well. My post was designed to provide you with some immediate solutions which will correct the pressure you may have originally provided. The idea is to counterbalance the mistake. It may make sense at this point to just hone through the problem. Sometimes good honing can eventually start to push through the bad honing. Let us know how it goes. The x pattern is really the way to go, its worth the extra learning curve.

Sorry about sounding technical on you, that wasn't my point. I really wasn't sure what you meant. Sometimes people say front and back when they mean edge and spine.

Like anything else worth doing, there is a learning curve.

I really appreciate the help from everyone.

Don in Ohio

Something else which is sometimes an issue is the shape of the edge. If it is anything less then perfectly straight (and often even if it is) a VERY subtle rolling of the blade from heel to toe throughout the honing stroke will ensure that the whole edge gets honed. This, as I say, is especially true for razors with a slight curve or 'smile' to them. In my book, this blade shape is actually preferred. Although it takes a little more expertise on the hone, it makes for a nicer shaving experience.

X

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Originally Posted by xman

Something else which is sometimes an issue is the shape of the edge. If it is anything less then perfectly straight (and often even if it is) a VERY subtle rolling of the blade from heel to toe throughout the honing stroke will ensure that the whole edge gets honed. This, as I say, is especially true for razors with a slight curve or 'smile' to them. In my book, this blade shape is actually preferred. Although it takes a little more expertise on the hone, it makes for a nicer shaving experience.

X

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I will need to try that:cool:

I'll just continue this thread instead of starting a new one in order to avoid duplication of answers. One of my razors has a toe that I cannot get a keen edge on. I have been doing X-patterns for a long time, putting a small bit extra pressure on the toe because the toe one fifth does not really touch the hone when the razor lies flat on it.

In spite of this no improvement. For some reason it passes the thumb nail test but it won't shave even one hair off my arm.
I checked it under the mircoscope and found a few very small nicks/burrs. I am afraid this is due to my own lousy honing and stropping in the past.

I am not looking forward to a continued honing effort in order to get the last one fifth of the length of the blade in a razor sharp condition, the other 4/5 is keen.

My thought at the moment is to start using the razor, use only the keen 4/5 of the edge and see what happens.

Theoretically you would expect the keen bit to wear a bit more than the toe and eventually the cutting edge will become a bit straighter (less smiley). This would lead to a better contact of the toe with the hone during future honing efforts.

Has anyone have any thoughts on this, done the same?

I'd like to know. Be honest even if you think my theory is utter crap!

One thing I've seen discussed that isn't mentioned here is that the height of the hone relative to the soulder may affect the venness of the edge. That is, If it's higher it moves towards one end of the hone and if it's lower, the other. I don't remember which.

But you can try it. If you think your pressure is pretty even but the results are not, try changing the height of the hone and see if it makes a difference.

One other thing I'll repeat here that I've said elsewhere is that it's easier to keep pressure constant on a wide hone by pushing straight across, heel first. Along th elines of what Lynn said. If you rest the blade on the hone and only use the fingers to guide it but not to add pressure, you'll have a better chance at an even edge with a wide hone.

Two thoughts:

(1) Is it possible that the edge of your hone is chipped or rough, so you're dulling and chipping the heel as it comes off the hone?

(2) Is it possible that you're just using too much pressure at the heel? This is easy to do since you have more leverage on that part.

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Originally Posted by Kees

... putting a small bit extra pressure on the toe ...

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I believe this is a mistake. Extra pressure will oversmooth, round or perhaps even wire your edge. It is important to keep the pressure even. This way whatever is happening along the edge is the same at all points. Try a whole new pyramid and keep that pressure even and traveling up the edge as you X off the hone steadily. I'm more of a Rolling Honer rather than an X Honer although I frequently draw the razor about 1/5 - 1/4 off the hone throughout the stroke, but if I get done rolling the contact up the edge before I've come to the end of the hone I just stop and do an intentional short pass on the way back. If I don't get all the way up to the tip, I'll do an extra half lap for the tip's sake before comming back and all the while I strive for absolute evenness in pressure.

Keep working at it using the Thumb Test frequently to guage the change in the edge and I belive the touch will come.

X

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Originally Posted by xman

I believe this is a mistake. Extra pressure will oversmooth, round or perhaps even wire your edge. It is important to keep thepressure even. This way whatever is happening along the edge is the same at all points. Try a whole new pyramid and keep that pressure even and traveling up the edge as you X off the hone steadily. I'm more of a Rolling Honer rather than an X Honer although I frequntly draw the razor about 1/5 - 1/4 off the hone throughout the stroke, but if I get done rolling the contact up the edge before I've come to the end of the hone I just stop and do an intentional short pass on the way back. If I don't get all the way up to the tip, I'll do an extra half lap for the tip's sake before comming back and all the while I strive for absolute evenness in pressure.

Keep working at it using the Thumb Test frequently to guage the change in the edge and I belive the touch will come.

X

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I agree with you about evenness of pressure, but I'm willing to bet that if you do the x-pattern with a narrow hone or do the rolling motion you're not using even pressure. I can demonstrate that even pressure with a 2" hone produces a frown. If you're not get getting one you've got to be compensating the pressure as you do the stroke.

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Originally Posted by Joe Lerch

I agree with you about evenness of pressure, but I'm willing to bet that if you do the x-pattern with a narrow hone or do the rolling motion you're not using even pressure. I can demonstrate that even pressure with a 2" hone produces a frown. If you're not get getting one you've got to be compensating the pressure as you do the stroke.

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I said I strive for evenness. A certain degree of human error cannot be avoided. More or less so depending on the human. :D I think you're right ultimately. The Rolling Hone will tend toward slightly more pressure at the ends of the edge than in the middle, but the striving or evenness seems to mitigate any niticeable discrepancy. I use a 3" hone (not that it mtters too much) and even if you could demonstrate actually and physically with a real world example rather than a slim thought experiment that a frown would be produced, you've only demonstrated that you produce a frown under certain circumstances. In my limited experience I've seen more wavy edges and uneven bevels than frowns. Narrow stones have many challenges to evenness, but smiling blades defy the stone width and even 'flat' edges with a slight smile can stymie the idea of eveness along the edge at one moment. In my experience relative evenness completely along the edge at the same instant in time is a myth. Particularly to the one handed honer like myself and especially with an even slightly smiling edge. That is why I Roll and others X. When I say "even" I mean using the same pressure (relatively) when it's the tip's turn for concentration as I used for the heel.

X

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Originally Posted by Joe Lerch

One thing I've seen discussed that isn't mentioned here is that the height of the hone relative to the soulder may affect the venness of the edge. That is, If it's higher it moves towards one end of the hone and if it's lower, the other. I don't remember which.

But you can try it. If you think your pressure is pretty even but the results are not, try changing the height of the hone and see if it makes a difference.

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Sorry Joe,

I do not understand the above. Can you rephrase that? I do not understand the relation between the height of the hone (or do you mean the thickness of the hone?) and the shoulder (my own, or the razor's shoulder?) on the one hand the evenness of the edge on the other hand. If the blade is in touch with the entire length of the hone underneath what does it matter to which end of the hone it moves? While honing the blade is moved all the time from one end to the other. One thing I did try is to turn the hone round (i.e. not upside down but rotate the left hand end of the hone right and the right hand end left)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Joe Lerch

One other thing I'll repeat here that I've said elsewhere is that it's easier to keep pressure constant on a wide hone by pushing straight across, heel first. Along th elines of what Lynn said. If you rest the blade on the hone and only use the fingers to guide it but not to add pressure, you'll have a better chance at an even edge with a wide hone.

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I'll try this tip and let you know.

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Originally Posted by mparker762

Two thoughts:

(1) Is it possible that the edge of your hone is chipped or rough, so you're dulling and chipping the heel as it comes off the hone?

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I don't think so but 'll check again. I do feel however that when the toe is in touch with the hone its passage over the hone feels a bit rough, uneven. But this happens close and further from the edge of the hone and even in the middle of the hone. I feel that's due to the burrs I saw under the mike.

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Originally Posted by mparker762

(2) Is it possible that you're just using too much pressure at the heel? This is easy to do since you have more leverage on that part.

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I am trying not to. I do have 2 or 3 fingers of my free hand on the spine guiding the razor over the hone, using little pressure.

I'd still bevel the hone if it isn't already. And remember that when guiding the razor down the hone, the weight of the scales tends to make the heel bear down harder than you think it is.

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Originally Posted by mparker762

I'd still bevel the hone if it isn't already. And remember that when guiding the razor down the hone, the weight of the scales tends to make the heel bear down harder than you think it is.

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What do you mean by "bevel the hone"? Do you mean I got to put a bevel on the edges of the hone? The edge is a bit rough but I dont feel that is the problem, especially as the heel doesn't suffer the same problem. Waht I nowadays do is guide the razor over the hone with the 4 fingers of one hand on the spine and using the thumb of the same hand to support the shank. my other hand is not used until I turn the blade and it takes over. That way I do te X-pattern or even have the razor at 45 dergrees on the hone so that the entire length of the blade is in contact with the hone at all times, with the exception of the last 1/5 of the cutting edge which unfortunately doesn't touch the hone when the entire spine and other 4/5 of the cutting edge do. I am still toying with the idea to let that last 1/5 be and as time passes and the razor is re-honed a couple of times I hope wear of the other 4/5 will eventually allow the entire length of the blade to be in contact with the hone.