W&B edge crumbling at macro level.

At first I thought I had overhoned this W&B wedge, and maybe that's still the case. But I'm starting to think that there is something wrong with the steel. I've honed around 10 razors so far and have never had this type of problem. On the heel of the blade, I can chip off the edge with pressure of my fingernail.

The blade was pretty rusty when I got it and I needed to take out a couple chips. So I got out a low grit water stone that I use for household tools, taped up the spine, and went to work. I did use pressure and I wonder if I damaged the edge because after I honed out the big chips a bunch of new little chips showed up.

I tried to correct the problem by using light pressure for about an hour's worth of honing, but the edge just keeps crumbling away.

http://straightrazorpalace.com/membe...cher-wedge.jpg

If it's chipping that easy, you can try to hone through it or call it quits. I don't know much about steel, but I don't see any visual signs that indicate anything is wrong with the blade. But that doesn't mean there are no visual signs and it doesn't mean there is nothing wrong with the steel.

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Originally Posted by Villalobos

At first I thought I had overhoned this W&B wedge, and maybe that's still the case. But I'm starting to think that there is something wrong with the steel. I've honed around 10 razors so far and have never had this type of problem. On the heel of the blade, I can chip off the edge with pressure of my fingernail.

The blade was pretty rusty when I got it and I needed to take out a couple chips. So I got out a low grit water stone that I use for household tools, taped up the spine, and went to work. I did use pressure and I wonder if I damaged the edge because after I honed out the big chips a bunch of new little chips showed up.

I tried to correct the problem by using light pressure for about an hour's worth of honing, but the edge just keeps crumbling away.

http://straightrazorpalace.com/membe...cher-wedge.jpg

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You have provide great information to us excpet one?
what do you mean Low grit water hone? how low is it?
if that grit below 2000 then your razor is fine. change stone use higher grits and you should be ok.
hope this helps.

I think Sham is on to something.... that just looks like very low-grit damage to me...

Two thoughts here.

1) Not sure what grit you are using as mentioned above. If all of the chips have been honed out except for what is pictured move up to a 1k hone or finer and do circles w/ medium pressure for a bout a minute per side and then switch to light pressure for a minute per side. Keep the same rhythm on each side to balance out the metal removed. By doing circles you are preventing over honing and a wire edge. Medium pressure will remove metal and light pressure will lessen the scratches. After the circles do ~10 x strokes and then look at the edge as you photographed above. If you are getting the same results it's the metal, look below.

2) From the pics you posted here it looks like the blade has 'Devil's Spit' or something very similar. While running some of my junk blades over greasless compound and practicing my style on the buffers I have found that blades that have the same appearance as the one you picture have the metal decay well below the surface. There are some that I ground a lot of metal off to get below the pitting. At the grit level you are working at the pitting may not be apparent as you may be rolling a burr into the pits/weaker metal. The only way to get past this is to hone away.

Let us know how you make out.

Good luck

I've gotten the same result honing chips out on a diamond plate. Switching to a gentler stone (Naniwa 1k) soon cleaned that up for me. I'm not sure if that is the issue but just IME. :gl:

[QUOTE=Joed;535329]
2) From the pics you posted here it looks like the blade has 'Devil's Spit' or something very similar. While running some of my junk blades over greasless compound and practicing my style on the buffers I have found that blades that have the same appearance as the one you picture have the metal decay well below the surface. There are some that I ground a lot of metal off to get below the pitting. At the grit level you are working at the pitting may not be apparent as you may be rolling a burr into the pits/weaker metal. The only way to get past this is to hone away.
[QUOTE]


I would have to +1 here

Looking at the pic right where the double scratch line is on the background go up and left see the pitting in the bevel??? look 3 times that distance to the right where the jagged reverse tear is see the pitting????...

I think you have a lot of honing to go, or none at all.... :(

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Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl

You have provide great information to us excpet one?
what do you mean Low grit water hone? how low is it?
if that grit below 2000 then your razor is fine. change stone use higher grits and you should be ok.
hope this helps.

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Well, it is a cheap Home Depot stone which doesn't state the grit, but it is well below 2000. That being the case the blade still constantly crumbles only in certain areas. Which makes me think it's the steel and not the hone.

I will try to see if I can hone through it. You guys did answer one of my big questions by omission. It doesn't seem that old Wade & Butcher blades are ever just poor quality and brittle.

There could be some elements of the steel and/or heat treatment involved. But I think that would have to occur on a "perfect storm" basis. Old razors were manufactured with heavy emphasis on the ritual aspect of reproducibility rather than necessarily the science that is available today to guide replication of desired results. All that means is that it's possible for a bad razor blade. Rituals generally produce consistent results even if the Why questions are never answered until generations later.

The edge looks clean in your photo, meaning I don't see any lines of corrosion penetrating deep into the steel and down to the areas that are flaking away. Higher magnification may give you a better look at that though.

Without being capable of providing a better honing answer, I'm in agreement with the idea that the wire edge is getting caught in the too large honing grit of the coarser stone. A finer stone is the answer for now.

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Originally Posted by Mike Blue

T
Without being capable of providing a better honing answer, I'm in agreement with the idea that the wire edge is getting caught in the too large honing grit of the coarser stone. A finer stone is the answer for now.

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Just to make sure it wasn't my cheep low grit hone I used it to put a bevel on a Electric Cutlery blade that I'm working on and there wasn't any macro crumbling involved. In fact, the blade was sharp enough to shave some whiskers. So now I'm convinced there is something wrong with the W&B blade.

I ended up honing the W&B in front of the T.V. for an other two hours last night (my girlfriend must think I've gone a little soft in the head :) ), still the same problem. I think I'll end up using it as a practice blade for when I get my greaseless compounds next week.

Thanks, Chris

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Originally Posted by Villalobos

Well, it is a cheap Home Depot stone which doesn't state the grit, but it is well below 2000. That being the case the blade still constantly crumbles only in certain areas. Which makes me think it's the steel and not the hone.

I will try to see if I can hone through it. You guys did answer one of my big questions by omission. It doesn't seem that old Wade & Butcher blades are ever just poor quality and brittle.

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Sorry nothing wrong with your blade it is your hone and pressure you use it to hone the blade.
hope this helps.

I had a big, beautiful W&B with this same problem. It ended up looking like a traingle before I was done trying to get rid of the bad steel. In my case, I may have overheated it with polishing compounds, though I thought I was careful with them.

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Originally Posted by Villalobos

Just to make sure it wasn't my cheep low grit hone I used it to put a bevel on a Electric Cutlery blade that I'm working on and there wasn't any macro crumbling involved. In fact, the blade was sharp enough to shave some whiskers. So now I'm convinced there is something wrong with the W&B blade.

I ended up honing the W&B in front of the T.V. for an other two hours last night (my girlfriend must think I've gone a little soft in the head :) ), still the same problem. I think I'll end up using it as a practice blade for when I get my greaseless compounds next week.

Thanks, Chris

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The stone you are using is far too coarse, the HD stone is a coarse/fine alu oxide stone that's about 150 on the coarse side and 320 on the fine side. You need a much finer stone but after 2 hours of grinding with the stone you have you might need a new razor.

OK. For the people who still think it's the hone and not the blade. I used the HD hone on this crown and sword that had a frown on it. It looks very different than the W&B edge. I appreciate the advice. Sorry the picture came out so huge.

http://straightrazorpalace.com/membe...417-hdhone.jpg

Please pay attention they are different razor and has different steel . they will not act to your stone same.hope this helps

I have a little 1/4 grind Haywood blade that is suffering from the same problem. The edge just crumbles away. Sometimes I can break little pieces off with a little pressure on my thumbnail. I've been using a DMT 1200 but just switched to the 8000 so progress is slow.

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Originally Posted by DogHair

I have a little 1/4 grind Haywood blade that is suffering from the same problem. The edge just crumbles away. Sometimes I can break little pieces off with a little pressure on my thumbnail. I've been using a DMT 1200 but just switched to the 8000 so progress is slow.

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If you've got a norton then the 4k side is quite good at this sort of thing.

The too course hone would be my first try because of the expertice of the people that presented it. But also keep in mind metal can defoilate when in oxidises that is the different molecules seperate. Due to rust or exposure to chemicals ie. soaps etc. I've worked with metal all my life and have seen this quite often. In a lot of older steels the chemical compounds where a lot simpler than modern steels which lends itself to this problem.