Hi everyone. I'm somewhat new to this. I've seen the term "pyramid" used to describe a honing technique. Could someone please explain what this means? I have two old razors and a Norton 4000/8000 but haven't been succesful yet. Thanks
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Hi everyone. I'm somewhat new to this. I've seen the term "pyramid" used to describe a honing technique. Could someone please explain what this means? I have two old razors and a Norton 4000/8000 but haven't been succesful yet. Thanks
The pyramid method is a honing method where you switch back and forth from the 4x side to the 8k side of the norton.
on the 4000 followed by the 800o the number of laps back and forth on the hone goes like this;
1/5
3/5
3/5
5/5
10/5
15/5
10/5
5/5
3/5
3/5
1/5
1/5
1/5
You don't have to go as high as 15 on the 4k if it's almost ready to shave and ending with a few 1/3 swipes seems to work for most guys.
It's all in the Help Files and described well in other posts. Do a search for more info.
X
If you perform the above pyramid then be sure and perform the thumb test and/or the hanging hair test frequently to judge the rate of change. You can stop at any point and finish with a 1/3, 1/3, 1/5 and then do a test shave.
Let us know how it goes.
I found a pyramid scheme that is a bit different and seems to be working for me. It seems to concentrate on more strokes on the higher grit stone than the lower. I use it on the Norton 4X8K, a Sharpton 15K and a .05 micron Hand American.
Norton 4X8
4/16
3/12
2/8
1/4
Norton 8 and Sharpton 15K
4/16
3/12
2/8
1/4
Handamerican flatbed hone .05 Micron
50 strokes
50 strokes on linen strop
50 strokes on the leather strop
jmsbcknr
WOW, that's a lot of smoothing te edge out. I'd be afraid of smoothing the fins away completely with a set like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by jmsbcknr
X
Thanks Jim,
Its always good to see what works for someone.
Just one question. Is that a "Sharpton" or a "Shapton" hone. They are different.
?Quote:
Originally Posted by jmsbcknr
Quote:
Originally Posted by randydance062449
Shapton. Must have been thinking of the reverend. jmsbcknr
It is certainly different than what I have used before. I actually got it from Dr. Moss and frankly tried it on a razor I had just gotten off of ebay. Did one round and it was shaving like a champ. I will continue to see if there is a difference between this and the pyramids that use more strokes on the 4K and less on the 8K.Quote:
Originally Posted by xman
jmsbcknr
Sorry if this seems a bit of a daft question - when honing using the Pyramid method do you keep the blade angled when drawing across the stone < / like / > ( arrows show honing direction ) or do you go straight across ? I'm guessing this will make a significance differnce to the overall results ?
It is more like </ \> motion... both diagonals going down, and out of the hone by 2/3 rds of the blade lenght.Quote:
Originally Posted by Garry
Before you do any pyramid you need to evaluate the razor. The pyramid could be overkill if you happen to have a nearly shave ready razor. From the posts I've seen here, most guys seem to overkill with the pyramid. For example, to me, the pyramids described about involve too many laps to be used as a general procedure. It's great if you've picked up a fairly dull razor from Ebay and don't know what to do with it. But in my opinion, you're much better off learning how to evaluate a razor first and then adjust the pyramid or work some other way.
For example, if a razor plainly looks dull or the thumb test shows it doesn't grab, I'll do a thumbnail test to determine if the edge is straight and smooth. If not, I go to the 4K and work the edge until passes the thumbnail test. What would I want with a pyramid? the finer grit is just a waste of time. Once the edge passes the thumbnail test, I move off the 4K.
At that point a pyramid could make sense since you're trying to polish the edge, but I don't use it. I'll just work on the 8K until the edge looks smooth and even at 60-100x magnification. I might go back to the 4K for a few if I see some chips. Once the edge looks smooth and even at 100x I'll move on to a finer hone, like a 12K.
From then on I use the thumb test to monitor edge improvement. When improvement stops, I move on to the .5 micron strop and keep stropping until improvement stops. At that point the razor is usually keen, but I could go on to a .25 micron strop. If I'm short on time, I can stop after the 12K stone and I don't give up a lot.
There has been some discussion on this matter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Garry
Lynn, I believe, keeps the razor at a perpendicular angle <| |> while moving the razor down and off the hone through the honing stroke so that only the tip is on the hone at the end of the stroke, thus creating a diagonal scratch pattern on the razor's edge.
Some have argued for pushing the edge stright along the hone <| |> without drawing it down off the hone, thus creating a 'stright' scratch pattern. I don't think that the stropping would have as good an effect on this kind of edge as a diagonal scratch pattern does, but I can't confirm that.
Most early honers (yours truly included) seem to keep the whole blade on the hone throughout the stroke, but keep the blade angled </ \> to create the the diagonal pattern. this has worked well for me in the past.
Because I have the best effect by using the 'rock & roll' method, I find myself using a slightly less severe angle and drawing the blade off the hone only slightly, much like is shown in the barber texts located in the Help Files. These actions only occur as a response to my primary focus, which is attention on the 45º angle to honing and rolling the contact up the edge.
There you go, all sides of the argument. I'm afraid you'll have to sort the rest out for yourself, but I'm sure you'll get there. Just keep checking your edge and watch the results of your actions closely and it will be hard not to make gradual progress.
X
A while ago, I looked into the question of why the x pattern was used in honing a razor. Originally, I thought it was because the stones were so narrow.Quote:
Originally Posted by Garry
But then I found an explanation in the barber's manual that the x-pattern produces a pattern of microscopic, assymetric saw teeth (like a saw), which is especially effective when you shave with a tip leading motion, as recommended by the barber manual. So there's a real reason for it.
If you go straight across a wide stone with a heel leading position of the blade (keeping the entire edge on the stone the entire time), you'll get the same result as the x-pattern.
X-man, I've heard others talk about the "rock and roll" method. Can you describe this method?
Thanks,
Rob
:thinking:
Well, you bend your knees a bit, lean forward, move your hands in toweling-your-back motion, and your feet just like you are trying to extinguish a cigarette on the ground... ;)
Everyone's a comedian!!! I thought I'd get a response like that from one of you guys.
:rant: :cry:
Certainly. Imagine that the cutting edge of the blade is not perfectly straight, but curved as many blades actually are. The centre of the blade bulges out slightly while the heel and tip are slightly retracted. A straight push across the hone would only sharpen that part of the blade in contact with the hone while the rest would remain onsharpened.Quote:
Originally Posted by robertlampo
In the 'Rock & Roll' method, as you begin each honing stroke, you make sure that the heel of the blade IS being sharpened on the hone and as you progress along te hone, you also roll the point of contact along the edge through the middle to the tip of the blade as you finish the stroke on the stone. Do the same on the return stroke and for each successive stroke and you will sharpen the whole edge well. In my limited experience, this is even beneficial for edges which appear or actually are perfectly straight.
Does this help?
X
Thanks X-man. Let me see if I get this...... In effect, what you're saying is that the R&R method can be achieved if the x-pattern (no pun intended) is utilized on the hone. So by default, with the traditional x, the whole blade is sharpened. :thinking:
-Rob
Yes, as long as your focus is on the portion of the blade that is going off the hone. It is almost more of an attitude/concentration thing. You really see the need for it when you are honing a razor with a "belly" or a slight warp.Quote:
Originally Posted by robertlampo
Think of it like a slight scyting motion while the razor comes off the hone, or the motion of the machete when cutting...Quote:
Originally Posted by robertlampo
Infact, the X pattern when the tip of the razor is ~1/3" on the hone at the end of the motion is designed to promote sharpening on all parts of the "smiled" razor's edge, so when executed corectly, there is little need for severe rock&rolling the blade...
Nenad
I think my confusion ( last night I was distraut ) has been cleared . I've studied the 1961 barber txt files , Randy's avatar and Nenad Z honing video on the Norton also not forgetting briandonofrio's video - his technique appears differnt to from what everyone has advised here , I think thatsa where I started to go off the track .. here's hoping I have a grasp on it now . stay tuned
As you perform the x-pattern you also sweep the blade in an arc fron heel leading to tip leading.Quote:
Originally Posted by robertlampo
Indeed. It is a VERY slight roll from heel to tip, almost imperceptible.Quote:
Originally Posted by superfly
Does classical music work while you do it? I follow the roll part but the Rocking I don't get...lol. OK just kidding!
I don't get either one. This is the first time I've heard it described that way, and it's neither a rock nor a roll, but it is a cute pseudonym.Quote:
Originally Posted by AFDavis11