A questionable edge: Advice sought.

Hi Everyone,

I'd really appreciate some thoughts on this. I have a couple of razors - one old, the other new, which I have honed on my coticule. They are both relatively sharp and pop arm hairs (HAHT) without any problems at all points along the edge, however, they don't seem very comfortable to shave with. Now they are both good razors, and one of them was originally honed by a professional and it used to give me great shaves, so the razors are not in question. My hone was highly recommended and I bought it from the classifieds here. So my question is what am I not doing/haven't I done yet.

My stropping is fine, but I am not an experienced honer. I follow Bart's method but without the tape.

Cheers,

Rob

Well, it seems you are making a comparison between the edges you are getting off your coticule and the edge someone else put on one of your razors. The edges I got off my coticule, though certainly good enough to shave with, were not as "sharp" (did not cut as easily) as the edges I have been able to get off other hones. I prefer "sharper" edges than what I was getting off my coticule. Perhaps you too prefer "sharper" edges. It would be a good idea to ask whoever honed your razor how it was finished, so you will know for your own reference.

It is also a possibility that your razors needed more retouching than the coticule alone was able to provide, but if you can cut hanging arm hairs, I do not think this is the case. Then again, everyone's arm hair is different - I cannot cut hanging arm hairs off a coticule at all.

At the risk of wild indignation and a complete loss of any reputation I might have left, what you describe sounds a little like overhoning. You are at about the right place in the learning curve of honing to start going overboard too.

What I would try is to use a few circular strokes to get the blade back to a neutral clean linear bevel and then start honing. Use a set of strokes, say 5 laps, then test every 5 laps, or one set, until the razor is smooth and comfy and just shaves okay.

Then, keeping careful track of the of the number of sets you do, stop honing when the razor is both smooth and sharp enough to shave. You keep track because you may need to start over again if you go too far.

Then, as you strop more and more you'll get better results.

There are some remedies for this situation through stropping also, if you want to try them, but honing is a better approach to start with.

I'm not familiar with "Bart's Method". I will say that knowing how to correctly hone using a slurry style hone is; different.

My razors will pass the HAHT off the 1k hone , but I would not want to shave with them . I've found that when I restore an edge and the razor won't shave as well as it should , that I need to go back to do more honing on the 4k .

Rob when razor pops the hairs that doesn't mean Blade is shave ready.
blade will be ready when it will cut hairs silently and hair falls off to your blade.(will not jump if it does then your blade is dull)
About your coticule.
They are natural stones. they will be different quality and very hard to find 2 in same condition.
Bart's Method will work if your stone is mean to for straight razor's.
The best option contact to seller and ask about quality of the coticule. then you can find out where is the problem.Your hone or honing technique.
hope this helps.
Be patient. gl

Hi_BUD_GL is right but let me add to that and say, the coticule as far as I've understood it about the same as an 8k. This is not a true finishing hone imho.I know coticule lovers will say otherwise, but i think you need to get something a littler higher grit maybe like a naniwa 12k or Escher or Chinese 12k, to put a smoother edge on it. You could always cheap out and go for a pasted strop and use that instead. I personally like using Diamond films to put a smoother edge on my blades.

Cheers
David

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sirshavesalot

the coticule as far as I've understood it about the same as an 8k. This is not a true finishing hone imho.I know coticule lovers will say otherwise, but i think you need to get something a littler higher grit maybe like a naniwa 12k or Escher or Chinese 12k, to put a smoother edge on it.

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I actually think a Coti edge is among the smoothest out there, but not the sharpest.

I would say that a coti leaves a sharper and smoother edge than an 8k. It's not just about the size of the grit, but also how it cuts. This is, naturally, different for every coti, so maybe it's just that the ones I've used are sharper and smoother than an 8k. I couldn't estimate grits because I have nowhere near that kind of knowledge/skill.

As far as "what is a finisher," that is really up to you. The general consensus seems to be that anything beyond an 8k is a finisher, but I've seen hones like the Dragon's Tongue (which I and a few others who posted about it) think is about 6-8k (interestingly, I found that a shave off a Dragon's Tongue was indistinguishable to a shave off a BBW - I did this with identical razors and posted about the whole process). So I guess what it really boils down to is "A finisher is whatever you can get a good shave off of" and the word "finisher" will be different for everyone.

I bought an 8x3 combo coticule off of TheTopher back when he was on the forums. He knows his way around a hone and he sold it to me because it could get a razor sharp but not scary sharp (his words) like his Shapton 16k.

It turned out to be the best cutting coticule I've had (out of many) for a compromise between speed and smoothness. The edge is quite comfortable and sharp enough for me to shave with. OTOH, I have a pink combo coticule that is way faster cutting but not as smooth. Some others maybe smoother but slower. Interesting stuff. Also Eschers that get the edges sharper and smoother IME.

When you say you are using Bart's method does that include the bevel setting with slurry ? You might re-read Bart's tutorial on that. He says that it requires both skill and time and the time will depend on both the honer's skill and the cutting quality of the individual stone. Lots of variables in the mix.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sirshavesalot

Hi_BUD_GL is right but let me add to that and say, the coticule as far as I've understood it about the same as an 8k. This is not a true finishing hone imho.I know coticule lovers will say otherwise, but i think you need to get something a littler higher grit maybe like a naniwa 12k or Escher or Chinese 12k, to put a smoother edge on it. You could always cheap out and go for a pasted strop and use that instead. I personally like using Diamond films to put a smoother edge on my blades.

Cheers
David

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+1

Even a Chinese 12k being a natural stone can vary -- but for the price
we should all consider having one and let it find its own place in the
honing process.

Since you (OP) have a Coticule sick with it and experiment with a touch of
lather on the stone. Compare and contrast water only with lather on your
stone. For me a bit of lather floats the blade and at the same time it
seems to pull the blade down on the hone. The combination permits
a very light and even touch on the lathered hone for me. i.e. if it shaves
badly apply some of the lather at hand to the hone and give the bad blade
five strokes on your hone, rinse both and select a different blade to finish your shave. After the shave is done, lightly strop it up and lightly oil it for tomorrow.

The next day strop and shave test it. Repeat as needed.

A set of fine to sub micron abrasive films can be a bargain for individuals.
I have a couple glass plates for use with film and they work very well
for me. I do not use diamond films partly because I can get other 3M films
already cut to fit, locally with less bother.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by niftyshaving

experiment with a touch of
lather on the stone. Compare and contrast water only with lather on your
stone. For me a bit of lather floats the blade and at the same time it
seems to pull the blade down on the hone. The combination permits
a very light and even touch on the lathered hone for me.

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Actually, a bit of dish soap will accomplish the same result, that is helping the blade "stick" to the hone. Add a few drops to your water dispenser (I use a measuring cup due to the spout). Just pour and go. It's not nearly as messy as using lather.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ryan82

Actually, a bit of dish soap will accomplish the same result, that is helping the blade "stick" to the hone. Add a few drops to your water dispenser (I use a measuring cup due to the spout). Just pour and go. It's not nearly as messy as using lather.

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Yes.. exactly.
My only point was since he was in the process
of shaving there was some handy lather that is
not yet washed down the drain. Rinse the hone
five stroke pairs, rinse the hone, rinse and dry
the blade.

If you are talking about barts dilucot method. It takes some practice to dial in and you really have to get a feel for your coticule.

I found his "Unicot" method a little easier to do. But... A couple laps on a pasted strop might get the razor there if it is close.


/These have been random honing rantings from mucinex/cough syrup drugged man.