this bevel is scaring me

Bought this ebayer cheap, eyes wide-open knowing it would be a fixer-upper. Sure enough it arrived with 2 ugly nicks out neqr the toe, with some pitting for good measure. Really the pitting isn't near as bad as the pictures show, contrast is bumped up quite a bit.
I decided to see if I could get the nicks out before I put too much elbow-grease into the thing. This is where I stand after working the nicks out on my 1200.

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_e96GWMBYR-E/S3...IMG_3713-1.JPG

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_e96GWMBYR-E/S3...0/IMG_3713.JPG


http://lh4.ggpht.com/_e96GWMBYR-E/S3...IMG_3711sv.jpg

Problem is obvious -- bevel and hone wear are uneven, way deep toward the toe, hardly any near the heel. There's a lot of razor here, pretty good shine left, I think I can buff it up pretty well, but I don't want to start that until I'm pretty sure I can get a better bevel. Thoughts? Thanks in advance.

When you "Buff" it up you can actually eliminate a ton of the bad spine wear during the restoration...

The best analogy I have been able to come up with is a rutted road... If you continue to drive in the ruts (uneven spine and bevel) they just get deeper (more uneven wear)... BUT if you smooth those ruts out (restore, then tape the spine) you can get a nice smooth drive (bevel) again... That is the best I can explain it...I hope it helps

I'm feeling way tired and stupid tonite -- tape the whole spine? Or just part of it?

What do you mean? Are you saying to level out the spine wear by grinding down the spine at the heel? I have a few razors that have odd bevel patterns, I might need to get you some pics, GS. Get your educated opinion on 'em.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by stimpy52

I'm feeling way tired and stupid tonite -- tape the whole spine? Or just part of it?

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The whole spine, and this is one time if needed, to use 2 layers of tape to straighten out the bevel...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by blockhead

What do you mean? Are you saying to level out the spine wear by grinding down the spine at the heel? I have a few razors that have odd bevel patterns, I might need to get you some pics, GS. Get your educated opinion on 'em.

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Yeah I knew this is going to be a little confusing when I wrote it..
Looking for before and after pics on some of my restores to have it make more sense....


OK found one

http://straightrazorpalace.com/custo...m-restore.html


Look at the second before pic see the uneven spine wear???
Now look at the after pic see how it has been "smoothed up"????

You can do that with sanding, or using a buffer and greaseless compounds, you are basiacally doing a minor re-grind...

To be completely honest, it doesn't matter WHAT the bevel looks like, as long as you get it sharp and it shaves well. Now most people would rather have a nice, small, even bevel but it isn't always gonna happen. I can't say I agree with Glen's analogy. Sure, you can round off the honewear and hide it by buffing, but once you hone it without tape, the wear would come right back. Once there are thicker and thinner sections on the spine, the geometry will never be quite the same. You can hand sand/buff etc. but the problem will still be lying underneath. Only a full regrind can completely alter honewear and the resulting bevel without "assistance" from things like tape. We all have our own opinions though.

With all that being said- that bevel isn't going to hurt your chances for a good shave as-is.

Maybe this razor has possibilities or it might have a simple case of

"<Lynn> Buying old nasty razors is not always a restoration dream......sometimes you just end up with a shiney pitted razor with a flattened spine and a worked out bevel.....:-) "

Thanks, Glen. If you scroll through that post, you will find that I also questioned you on this back then! I guess I am just concerned about some razors that I have that have a bit more wear at the toe, although I should not really be that worried. As Philadelph stated, it boils down to aesthetics. In most cases. I am sure that on some blades there could be a real problem but for the most part it is a question of what is pleasing to the eye. The two razors in question were ones that were gifted to me by Max, and he said that they had centuries of use left in them. Maybe I need to stop obsessing about little stuff like this, as it more than likely will have no bearing on how the razor shaves.

The real question would be about how razors get that way, wouldn't it? How does one consistently hone a razor in a manner that would give you more pronounced wear on the toe? I mean, to the point that it is VERY obvious? I will have to get some pics up, as the one I am talking about doesn't really have THAT much of a smile, but has a MUCH thinner spine at the toe than the heel. But I will start my own thread for that. Sorry, Stimpy!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by blockhead

The real question would be about how razors get that way, wouldn't it? How does one consistently hone a razor in a manner that would give you more pronounced wear on the toe? I mean, to the point that it is VERY obvious?

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Too much pressure.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Philadelph

Too much pressure.

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And/Or not honing the whole blade.

Could using a stone with a non lapped surface add to this? Say, one where the edges slope and leave a crown in the center of the stone?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Philadelph

.I can't say I agree with Glen's analogy. Sure, you can round off the honewear and hide it by buffing, but once you hone it without tape, the wear would come right back. Once there are thicker and thinner sections on the spine, the geometry will never be quite the same. You can hand sand/buff etc. but the problem will still be lying underneath. Only a full regrind can completely alter honewear and the resulting bevel without "assistance" from things like tape. .

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Yeah that could be why I specifically laid out the instructions the way I did... but yes if you choose to not follow them, then you can expect to attain different results than what I posted...
If you follow them, and actually know how to hone, you will get a nice even small bevel.... oh yeah and no noticable hone wear...


The second part is also not quite true as you would altering the geometry again....

I understand the principle behind how the bevel is created. I get that the thickness of the spine, relative to the width of the blade is what determines the size and width of the cutting edge. I am just having a bit of a block as to how a razor with progressively more spine wear toward the toe can have a variance in bevel width, as in on the back side of the blade the bevel is wider toward the heel and on the front the bevel is wider closer to the toe. On the back, the corresponding spine section of the widest beveled area (right at the stabilizer) has almost NO wear.

So, the option you were referencing in the earlier post didn't change the thickness of the spine, just the contour? If that is the case, how do you keep from having this recurring problem? Or would resetting the bevel potentially solve the problem? I know it is hard to comment on a specific razor without seeing the exact situation. As the design of the blade DOES give you a built in honing "guide" with the spine resting on the stone during sharpening, most problems found on these razors would be due to faulty honing, correct? I assume that if you can catch them before too much damage is done, a bevel reset can sort of give you a clean slate?

What if you had a 5/8 and wanted to try a smaller razor, say a 3/16. What problems, geometrically, would you encounter by reducing the width of a blade?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

oh yeah and no noticable hone wear...

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It's still noticeable in your pics to my eye... just saying.

I'll agree to disagree with you in this thread lol.

I'm with you on this one Philadelph, I've hone some big old wedges that I'd run through my greaseless progression, and although it "appeared" to have corrected uneven honewear..as soon as I honed them (without tape) the unevenness was still evident...

Really the only solution is evenly regrind, OR...the aesthetic solution of taping the spine. I still tape the spine 90% of the time I hone a razor, and some purists out there might think that this will be a decieving practice, hiding uneven honewear through restoration buffing + tape...but...as you also mentioned Philadelph, what matters is a sharp edge that shaves well.

Interesting discussion though, and I do know where glen is coming from, as I thought I had fixed a few uneven bevels & honewear myself through greaseless..but,..once I actually began honing w/o tape I realized it was just lurking beneath.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by blockhead

I understand the principle behind how the bevel is created. I get that the thickness of the spine, relative to the width of the blade is what determines the size and width of the cutting edge. I am just having a bit of a block as to how a razor with progressively more spine wear toward the toe can have a variance in bevel width, as in on the back side of the blade the bevel is wider toward the heel and on the front the bevel is wider closer to the toe. On the back, the corresponding spine section of the widest beveled area (right at the stabilizer) has almost NO wear.

So, the option you were referencing in the earlier post didn't change the thickness of the spine, just the contour? If that is the case, how do you keep from having this recurring problem? Or would resetting the bevel potentially solve the problem? I know it is hard to comment on a specific razor without seeing the exact situation. As the design of the blade DOES give you a built in honing "guide" with the spine resting on the stone during sharpening, most problems found on these razors would be due to faulty honing, correct? I assume that if you can catch them before too much damage is done, a bevel reset can sort of give you a clean slate?

What if you had a 5/8 and wanted to try a smaller razor, say a 3/16. What problems, geometrically, would you encounter by reducing the width of a blade?

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It sounds like you are trying to simplify this...

You have soooooo many variables here it is actually more amazing that we ever get a small even bevel..

Just some things that can cause the problems you are describing

A warped spine
an un-even spine
a warped heel
a warped toe
a warped blade
an un-even grind
an un-lapped stone
an un-even stroke
un-even pressure
lifting the spine while honing
and probably a few more I am forgeting.....

All this and more can mess up the bevel/edge or spine...

Brad and Alex why in the world, would you spend all the time and effort to buff, polish, clean, and restore a razor if you are just going to mess it up all over again?????

That is what I don't understand at all, not one bit?????????????????????? I just can't wrap my brain around re-honing those ugly un-even spines back into a nicely restored razor....


edit:
sorry IMHO they are ugly :)

Glenn wrote

"Just some things that can cause the problems you are describing

A warped spine
an un-even spine
a warped heel
a warped toe
a warped blade
an un-even grind
an un-lapped stone
an un-even stroke
uneven pressure
lifting the spine while honing
and probably a few more I am forgeting....."

Have you been talking to my chiropractor? This pretty much describes by body and my life.

Stimpy you owe me a new keyboard :)

I just spit A&W rootbeer on it LMAO

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

edit:
sorry IMHO they are ugly :)

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I actually like to keep the uneven hone wear, as long as it isn't a frown. I consider it to be a part of the razor's character. It shows that it hasn't led a boring life, sitting on a shelf waiting to become a NOS razor. I also, often, like to keep some pitting as it adds character to the razor.

But I have also been described as lazy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Brad and Alex why in the world, would you spend all the time and effort to buff, polish, clean, and restore a razor if you are just going to mess it up all over again?????

That is what I don't understand at all, not one bit?????????????????????? I just can't wrap my brain around re-honing those ugly un-even spines back into a nicely restored razor....

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I wouldn't spend all that time to make it pretty then mess it up again... I just regrind them in the first place! lol If it's too hollow to be reground, I don't bother. Besides, I always use tape too! lol

Not all customers can afford regrinding &/or restoration.
Sometimes a bit of 'ugly' spine wear is an acceptable tradeoff for a nice shaving edge & is the cheaper option for a new user. A layer of tape on some of the eBay nightmares people have asked me to hone would only serve to clog up my hones :p Horses for courses I think.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

It sounds like you are trying to simplify this...

You have soooooo many variables here it is actually more amazing that we ever get a small even bevel..

Just some things that can cause the problems you are describing

A warped spine
an un-even spine
a warped heel
a warped toe
a warped blade
an un-even grind
an un-lapped stone
an un-even stroke
un-even pressure
lifting the spine while honing
and probably a few more I am forgeting.....

All this and more can mess up the bevel/edge or spine...

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No, it is not a matter of simplifying things, I was just laying out the logical building blocks for the construction of the edge based upon how the razor is made. There is nothing simple about it, aside from the inherent simplicity of the design itself. The bevel is determined by the width of the blade, relative to the thickness of the spine. A razor has a built in guide to regulate the angle at which it contacts the hone. We are not splitting atoms here. It's just the way it is. (In theory...)

That list was what I was looking for earlier when I asked "What could cause this?". And a few of them DO point toward "user error" as I thought they would. It just seems that there would be more ill informed people out there honing problems into good razors than mass made blades with such a variance from razor to razor that we have these undulating patterns on the bevel. I am sure that warping of a blade at the toe or heel is a very viable problem that pops up frequently, don't get me wrong. But the razors I am talking about seem to check out fine when checked with a straightedge. I can see what you mean about the uneven grind as well, and was thinking about that as I was falling asleep last night before reading this.

I guess that I fall into the camp of not wanting to go to the trouble to make a razor totally flawless. Not "not wanting" but not seeing the need. If I were relegated to shaving every morning on national television and were being judged on style, outcome, and fit & finish of my equipment, then I get it. But I am not, and I DO enjoy the aspect of wet shaving with a straight in that it sort of connects me to the way in which my Great Grandfather and Grandfather started off their days. I sort of doubt that they were worried about an uneven bevel before trudging off to work at the lumberyard. I am not either, though I did breech the topic as a matter of curiosity.

Thanks for all of your input, Glen. Don't let me come across as being a d**k, as I am grateful for every answer I have gotten from you. I am just juggling different approaches to this fine hobby of ours. You do awesome work, and the red "Superior" is the benchmark for my covered tang Boker when I redo it. As a result of all of this, I am going to give your approach a shot on this Landers Frary and Clark that I have been talking about.


Austin

The most common cause is honing with two hands. There is a lot of damage that occurs to razors over decades that leads to the belief in the present that what you are doing today causes no damage.

The problem with two handed honing is that you eventually have to put your hand down somewhere specific. . .

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AFDavis11

The most common cause is honing with two hands. There is a lot of damage that occurs to razors over decades that leads to the belief in the present that what you are doing today causes no damage.

The problem with two handed honing is that you eventually have to put your hand down somewhere specific. . .

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Ahhhh... I can see that. An otherwise straight blade would flex and wear in one spot when having more pressure applied to the middle with say, the index finger. Good point.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by blockhead

I am going to give your approach a shot on this Landers Frary and Clark that I have been talking about.


Austin

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Really nice razors I have restored two of them, and both were top notch shavers very smooth edges...

I kinda misunderstood your first posts. I thought you initially said that the buffer could correct the uneven honewear....which it can't do.. you basically just said that it would smooth it out.. I was just agreeing with what Philadelph said because it is true. He must have misunderstood your first few posts as well.

-Brad

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Brad and Alex why in the world, would you spend all the time and effort to buff, polish, clean, and restore a razor if you are just going to mess it up all over again?????

That is what I don't understand at all, not one bit?????????????????????? I just can't wrap my brain around re-honing those ugly un-even spines back into a nicely restored razor....


edit:
sorry IMHO they are ugly :)

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by blockhead

That list was what I was looking for earlier when I asked "What could cause this?". And a few of them DO point toward "user error" as I thought they would. It just seems that there would be more ill informed people out there honing problems into good razors than mass made blades with such a variance from razor to razor that we have these undulating patterns on the bevel. I am sure that warping of a blade at the toe or heel is a very viable problem that pops up frequently, don't get me wrong. But the razors I am talking about seem to check out fine when checked with a straightedge. I can see what you mean about the uneven grind as well, and was thinking about that as I was falling asleep last night before reading this.
Austin

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Ok let me try and explain more here....

When I give an answer I try and do it using my experience of restoring and honing a lot of razors so I am combining a ton of different situations into that answer....

There are two types of problems I see..
1. is user induced ones from bad technique or bad stones...
2. is manufacturer induced by some type of of flaw in the straightness of the razor...

Both of these can look the same on the razor, and I need to correct them first to tell the difference, BUT and this is a huge BUTT ....:)

Why does it really matter????

If it was user induced when I re-hone it is gone... if it was a warp I cant fix it anyway I have to hone around it,, and if it was a bad grind, between the buffing and the tape it no longer matters...
In restoration you want a good solid shaving edge and the best looking razor you can produce, that's it really...

This is for my personal razors and those that come in for work...

I tried for a long time to figure out what happened to razors over their life like the ones that only have a worn toe or heel or frown I tried to figure out how the heck they were honed to cause those problems and I have a ton of theories but in the end they are just theories and they would take years to prove out...

Honestly I don't want to get drawn into the tape vs no tape discussion because it just comes down to personal opinion after awhile, BUT 1 layer of tape on the spine eliminates a ton of honing issues... and you guys can talk about the razor character and battle scars until you are blue in the face...
I think spine wear is ugly...that is my opinion and I am entitled to it...:)

Also here is a small fact, I have yet to have a person send me a razor for a full restore and say " Glen please leave those beautiful flat spots on the spine they look great" :D:D:rofl2::rofl2:
Now to complete that yes many people just want the razor cleaned and honed but that is a different proposition...

And in the end this was the original question by the OP,

Problem is obvious -- bevel and hone wear are uneven, way deep toward the toe, hardly any near the heel. There's a lot of razor here, pretty good shine left, I think I can buff it up pretty well, but I don't want to start that until I'm pretty sure I can get a better bevel. Thoughts? Thanks in advance.

Which was the question I answered of how to make that go away...

Sand it, buff it, and tape it, and it will go bye bye....

Didn't mean to start a firestorm -- anyway, here's where I ended up. Got things a little more even, took it up to my 12k. For what it's worth, it shaves just beautifully... a very stiff blade; quiet on my face, very comfortable.

I promise to: (1) keep my left hand in my pocket doing something else while I hone (2) use less pressure (3) make super-sure to hone the entire blade

Please -- it was messed-up when I started
http://lh3.ggpht.com/_e96GWMBYR-E/S3...4/IMG_3726.JPG

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_e96GWMBYR-E/S3...4/IMG_3716.JPG

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_e96GWMBYR-E/S3...4/IMG_3717.JPG

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Originally Posted by stimpy52

Didn't mean to start a firestorm --

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You didn't, this is actually the way things are learned on SRP, we discuss different approaches and we all walk away trying different things until the next time when we discuss it again using the experience that we learned...
If these discussions didn't happen the hobby would stagnate and get boring again... and none of us want that...